Your Colleagues Are Making More Than You (Here's Why) with Adelle Thompson

Why do 60% of workers never ask for pay rises?

In this episode we welcome career change and confidence coach Adelle Thompson to the show.

We talked about strategies for increasing your income and how to use LinkedIn as a personal brand platform to advance your career as well as so much more!

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Adelle on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/adelle-thompson-18499125

Adelle on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/coachadellet/

Adelle online https://www.atenrich.com/

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✅ How to leverage your achievements to secure a significant pay rise 

✅ The first 90-day strategy for making a powerful impression in a new role 

✅ Tactical negotiation approaches for salary, benefits, and title improvements 

✅ How to transition between industries without taking a pay cut 

✅ Building a personal brand on LinkedIn to create career opportunities 
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DISCLAIMER:
This video is meant for educational purposes and should not be considered financial advice. When you invest your capital is at risk. Past performance is not a guarantee of future success.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the Money Games podcast. Is your job currently paying you enough? That is what we're going to find out today and how you can potentially change that with career change and confidence coach Adele. Adele, welcome to the show. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:14

I'm good. I'm good. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

I am so excited about this conversation. I feel like it's one that we just don't get enough of and something we haven't really explored on this podcast deeply before. But you've got such a different perspective. Like when we caught up the other day, I was like loving it. I was like vibing. I've never taken so many notes on a pre-call ever. But I want to kickstart this by jumping into pay rises. So I came across a stat and it blew my mind. It was a you gov stat that said 40% of people, they have only ever asked for a pay rise. So 60% of all working people have never asked for a pay rise. That's mind-blowing to me.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

It's even less for women. Yeah. So it's 20%, which is just nuts.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I would have thought I would have thought that 20%, if I'm honest, would be even less. If I'm honest, just in my experience from like working with women and stuff like that. We tend to shy away from the money conversations. We're taught that it's not ladylike. It's not so, but the 40% that doesn't really shock me. Um I probably used to be in that like percent, like the the the pit 60% that don't ask, I was probably in that percentage at one point. Because I think when you're working, you almost feel like you're waiting for them to tell you you're good enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

External validation. Versus when you really get into your career and you realize actually, I get better every single day, I get better every single month. Why do I have to wait for that yearly pay rise? Or why do I have to because that's what it is. We we're taught in society you get a pay rise once a year. 2%, 3%, 5%. Actually, I don't take a year to get better at my job. So why would I take a year to get paid? So once I realized that, that was when I was like, well, if you've given me KPIs and said I need to achieve them in six months, but I've achieved them in three, I'm gonna have the conversation. But I don't think most people think that way because we're not taught that way. It's not, it's not the norm. Um and I hear that a lot. A lot of people say to me, Oh, in corporate, you can't do that. And I'm like, I've been in corporate for like almost 17 years. You definitely can. But the thing is, by them convincing us that we can't, the majority will always not do it. Like I know most people leave their job rather than ask for a pay rise. Leave? Yeah, they'll leave to get more money. Like people that want more money tend to rather than ask for that, and that's why you've got that massive 60% not asking, only 40% asking, because the 60% would rather just go and find something else, even if they like their job, rather than sort of ask. Just go and have that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

It's crazy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yeah, people are scared of no. I feel like people think that no is gonna make you somehow be worse off than you already are. I remember someone saying to me once, if you get a no, you're in the exact same position you currently are. If you get a yes, it's a bonus. And I think that was for me the turning point. I was like, oh yeah, because in our head, no feels so big that oh my gosh, if I ask and they say no, somehow I'm gonna be worse off than I currently am. And I feel like that's why only 40% of people have ever asked for a pay raise.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah, it's like it's interesting you say they left though, because that's like I to be honest with you, I used to leave, but I did it meticulously with a plan. So it was like two and a half years. I then knew that if I went from bigger corporation to startup, back to bigger corporation, back down again, I'd go up in title and go up in wage very quickly. And so that took me from you know 30 grand up to six figures in a really short period of time, just by being a bit tactical about it. But this is different. This is like I've done well, now I would like some more money. Please pay me that, but we just don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

No.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

How do we get over that? Do you think?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

I think it's really embracing how what we're good at in our job. Like someone asked me once, how do I get more confident? And I was like, actually, start with your competence. What are you good at? What are you great at? We try to be good at everything rather than looking at the one or two things that we're great at. Now, if you're great at those things and those things are making your company money, I feel like the hurdle you have to get over in your mind is how do I impact my company financially? Because let's be honest, that's what most companies care about. How much money am I making you? Once you can figure that out, I feel like then it's like, oh, so I'm helping my company make X amount of money, why am I not asking for a portion of that money back? But I think it is, it's a it's a whole mindset shift. It is really just thinking about what are you competent at? And instead of people leaning towards, oh, I need to be more confident, actually, let's talk about what you're good at. What are you already good at and what can you already get paid for? I think if people thought of it like this if you have a job and you are continuing to be employed, there's something you're good at. They're benefiting from something. No one's keeping you employed if you're not if you're not benefiting them in some sort of way. So I think that's the first mindset shift. I must be benefiting them, otherwise I wouldn't still be employed. Or I wouldn't be employable.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Do you think it's different if you've like just joined? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

For sure. I've I and I think when you're new into just in the job world, you've just joined, it is like a really nervous thing. I think you said something really key. You know how you said you plan and you're tactical? That's what I work with my clients on that a lot. Having a forward plan. So when you start, if you can impress in your thirst 90 days, the pay rises going on from there become much easier. So I usually say to people, if you can think at interview, ask the right questions, what are they looking for from someone in the first six months? Deliver that in the first 90 days. Have your plan. I think because when you do go in new, of course, you're like, I'm new, I've got loads to learn. But at the same time as you're learning, you're actually still delivering. And I think again, we don't think of that. Like, yes, you're learning because it's a new company, you're brand new, but you probably have a skill set that actually they're benefiting from during that period.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

So are you looking at both sides of the coin and thinking about how much am I learning versus how much am I benefiting them? When's the right time to ask? And I'm not saying everyone's going to be able to ask in those first six months. Some people really need the time to get to grips with everything before they can kind of really start to excel. But I think those that go in, maybe you've worked somewhere before and this isn't your first job, but it's just a new company. If you make those first 90 days count, promise you that your next, the next conversation at six months is so much easier to ask for more money.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

So, how would you go about that? Like you go in turbo mode, basically, in the first 90 days.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Listen, and it doesn't work for everyone. I personally, I like to lay the foundation in the first 90 days. I want to build relationships, I want to know who all the key people are and get some FaceTime. Get my face in front of their face.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

So I want to like her, like, I my name's being said in rooms. Like, oh, that new lady you've got in your department, she's amazing. Yeah. So first thing I want to do is relationship building. I think people don't value that enough. Likeability opens way more doors than qualifications, and that's just the honest truth. So get some FaceTime with the right people. Make sure you've asked what they expect from you. If they've told me they expect this in six months and this in 12 months, I'm gonna try and deliver it sooner. Simple. Like whatever it is, I'm gonna try and deliver it sooner. Some people, you might not always be able to do that, but in the areas you can, and I think this is important. They give you six things you need to do. Let's see if you can get three of those done.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Or earlier. You don't have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Buying kudos points early, isn't it? Like you're just sort of must sit putting yourself in their firing mind. So if you do make a mistake in six months, they're like, oh well, like it covers up, it's like the Halo effect.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

It covers up all the good, covers up any little bad that you do. Because first 90 days, everyone loves you, make a little mistake, they're like, oh, that's not normal for her, she's great. That's not normal for him, he's great. Because they remember you've come in and made such a good impression. You've come in and done such great work. And I always say when you start a job, ask all the questions. People are so scared to look silly. That's when you're supposed to look silly. Those first few months, ask all the questions, get all the knowledge, take all the notes so that you can actually deliver above expectation.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah. Yeah. They it's so interesting because they say like you should make people like feel like so like they feel interesting when you ask them questions. They feel like their job is now important because the new person's asking me all about my job. Like, wow, that was cool. And then suddenly, oh, I really like them. They didn't actually give any information about themselves, they just asked me a load of questions. And then you always remember them now. And that's like a really good way to sort of cross that boundary. I love that you said that because yeah, I'm very tactical. Like I used to go into so I knew that the head chefs and the GMs, but interestingly also the security, are the most important people in the building. And so, like when I used to run bars and restaurants, head chef, best pals had to be best pals because they were mouth off, left, right, and centre, otherwise, because they're usually quite volatile individuals. The security, one, they're gonna look after you if stuff goes wrong. Two, they kind of know everything about everyone in the place. So it's always a good guy to like get the 4-1-1 on the person you can't work out, and then the boss, you know, you need to know the boss needs to know who you are, like or the or the GM of that place, you know, and he's got you've got to shake some hands, man, make them like you because they're gonna back you up when something happens.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Absolutely. And that that small talk that a lot of people don't like, including me sometimes. Like, I don't always love it. That's the thing you need to do.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Just like you said, the key people, line yourself up with those key people. 100%. You'll always be good.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah, I have like uh like three or four questions that I like write down before I'm going into that conversation, and they're open-ended questions. So like they're not closed questions like, where are you from? London. It's like, oh, and they say London, you go, Oh, what's it like there? And then they'll go and they're off and running, and then suddenly they're telling you all about that life, and it just changes the game for you, and you're a likable person, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Absolutely. And like I said, likeability, like just asking, even you said open-ended questions, like asking them how they got to where they are, like what makes them enjoy the company.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Great.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Open-ended questions, like what made you enjoy, what made you want to get into whatever department it is that they're in. People like talking about themselves, people have egos.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Totally. We all do.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Stroke the ego and you're memorable, you're likable, you're the nice person. Oh, I really like that. And sometimes they don't even know why they like you. Like, it isn't necessary for your work, it's just, oh, you're really likable. And then it's like, oh yeah, you should go and ask that person. Like, you should she's new, but she knows this, this, this, this. You become the go-to person. Yeah. As long as you lay that foundation. And I think that's key.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Oh, yeah. Love this. The first 90 days, try and make an impact. Yeah. Doesn't always have to be like, you have to like work until 2 a.m. No. It's very much relationship building, doing the right things.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Work smart. So it's not about taking every project. What projects matter most to your company? You will know that if you're speaking to the key people. If I'm friends with like the I like PAs.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

So I make friends with all the all the CEOs' PAs. All of them know me, all of them like me. Then I get to find out what the CEOs or what the MDs, whoever it is, I get to know what they like. Because through the PA. PA likes me now, PA's gonna talk me up in other rooms. But then I'm gonna find out what do they care about most. That's what I'm working on. I'm not working on all the products, I'm not staying late. And not don't get me wrong, I've done that. When I was younger in my career, I definitely was come in early, stay really late, and that worked for me at that time. But actually, I got smarter and I figured out oh, if I just do the right projects, the things they care about most, do that more often than the other little piddly things that people pay attention.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

They really do, they really do. So let's say you've been there a little while now and you've got your year review coming up. So an important, you know it's important, and and you are perhaps looking for some more money. Well, everyone is, like, let's be honest, right? But how do you prepare for that review? So you go in there, guns blazing in a way?

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Receipts, receipts, receipts, receipts. I say it all the time. Like you can turn your praise into pay. Every time someone tells me I've done a good job with something, make a note. This is something we never do because in a year I'm not gonna remember something I did.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

At six months, at three months, at eight months, make notes. How are you winning on projects? How have you helped people? I always say think about things in terms of results. So not what you do, but why what you do matters. Because the company doesn't care. Okay, you you created some Excel spreadsheets. They don't care. How did that Excel spreadsheet help someone else? How did it improve efficiency? How did it um make the team better? How did it improve- Save money on save money, like make money? What always you should always go in with your receipts. Your receipt should cover how did you make money, how did you save money, how did you improve efficiency, how did you upskill a team? Um, and how did you achieve like a KPI or a target before like early? Like those are the things you should look at, the main things I always say to people have and have receipts for each thing. A lot of the time we go into pay rise and the conversation is, oh, I've been here a year, or I've been here two years, I've been here five years. No one cares if you've been in the building. Yeah. I say to people all the time, being in the building is not a reason to get paid more.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah. It's so true.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

It isn't like you're just in the building, okay, you've warmed the seat up for like five years. That doesn't, but actually, in those five years, what have I done that matters? What have I done to affect the bottom line? How have I impacted your revenue? Um, I say to people all the time, I worked for a company once and I saved them 1.3 million in recruiting. I will talk about that until I'm probably 70 years old because that is my claim to payment. I've made you 1.3 million. Yeah. And then I'm gonna say, would you like me to keep doing that? That's why you need receipts. Because if I'm gonna go into my review, I'm gonna say, oh yeah, in the last year I'm I saved you got like 1.3 million. I've saved you that money, which you can now do with whatever you want. So I can keep doing that. And actually, I've got what I've got some ideas for you that we can save even more money.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

So you have your receipts and then you flip them on how you're gonna use what you've done already to keep improving.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

So it's receipts plus I know what I'm gonna do with this and how I'm gonna carry on doing this to really leverage that conversation when it does come down to the Yeah, because you're not selling potential anymore.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

They actually in an interview you sell potential. But in a pay rise conversation, they already know who you've been for a year. You sometimes need to remind your boss, your boss isn't gonna remember all the things you've helped them achieve. Once you've told them what you've like what you can achieve, then you let them know I've got a plan to make you even more money. I've got a plan to save you even more money, I've got a plan to make you even more compliant so we don't get any more lawsuits. Whatever it is, tell them what your plan is. So then you can then start asking for more than the 5% that they like to offer everyone or the 4%. You can start saying, this is the this is the amount I had in mind. And also another key thing as well when you go into that is research the market.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

When you're in a job, you you stop looking at the market. And that happened to me once. I was in a job for a few years. I get I was getting pay rises, but I hadn't looked at in the market. I was 15 grand behind the market. So I went in and said, I want 15 grand more. And they were like, people would say to me, You're not gonna get 15 grand to do the same job in the same company. I absolutely did.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Because I was ready not just with my receipts, but also I've gone out into the market and had a look. And if I was to leave here, I'd probably get another 20k. Do you want to keep me? I've been able to do all these things. I'm gonna keep doing these things. And more.

unknown 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

How about that 15 grand? So, and it is a it's a back-and-forth conversation. It's not just like, oh, I asked for 15 grand and they said, Yeah, I don't have it. It was a bit of a, oh, we can do 10. And I was like, okay, but if we do 10, I might have to consider other options because you know the market is doing this at the moment, and I've not been in line with the market for the last two years. Are you prepared? So, receipts, evidence, and are you prepared for what do you want next? Because I think some people go into their payrolls not knowing what they want.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

No, exactly. You've got to be ready, right? Like, how much do you want? We did it with my partner recently. We knew full well that she was probably not gonna get more than 15.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

So we asked for 25. There you go. Just like, you know, you bargain, I'll put my chips on the table. Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Like the same role is going for this over here, knowing that actually it's probably more in line with about the 1520. And so I'd be okay with that. But it, you know, if she moved role and went up again, she probably would get the 25. But the hassle of moving, all of that jazz. And so you've got to be prepared with what you want when you go into that conversation. She had her receipts. I love that. It's like she knew her worth, her value. And then now it's like, okay, um, you know, I'm gonna get gonna get their money.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

I love that. And I love that she asked for 25, even if she thought it was less. Always ask for more than you want. Because you give wiggle room then for them to negotiate, and you'll probably end up still higher than you wanted in the first place. Just like buying a house. Yeah. It's exactly the same thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

You go slightly lower, knowing full well that you're probably gonna go, uh, you know, they're gonna come in a little bit higher, but you're gonna end up being where you wanted to be.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Exactly that, exactly that. And people don't use that tack technique, they say exactly what they want.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

And then when they get negotiated down, they're like, oh, but I wanted what I wanted.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Yeah, yeah. And you said to me that that 10 minutes of your life is the most important and it's so difficult to gear yourself up for it. Like, what how can you go through that? Because like we just kind of feel really weird and we almost avoid that, but that's probably the most important 10 minutes in your life.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

I always say the an extra 15k is worth 10 minutes of discomfort. Because when you've got that money, are you gonna be uncomfortable spending it? Are you gonna be uncomfortable enjoying that money, whether you're investing, whether you're buying property, whatever it is, are you going to be uncomfortable? No. So actually, sometimes we have to take that minute and just be like, what's the reward of this 10 minutes of being uncomfortable? Like at one point, I was a single mum. That 10 minutes of discomfort got me 20k and an amazing title. It's about what's the reward? So we have to start putting food on it. Literally, could be putting food on your table. So you saying, Oh, I don't like negotiating, no one really wants to, like, as much as I negotiate all the time, I hate it. I don't want to go back and forth. I'm very much just give me what I've asked for.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Some people live for it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, give me what I want. I just don't want to go back and forth. I don't want to be here all day.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Nobody, most people don't want to negotiate. You don't want to have to ask that uncomfortable question. Yeah. But think about it long term. Like, what could this, how could this set me up for my next step? Like if I get myself 10, 15k ahead now, the next job is going to be even easier. And the next job versus if I'm already 20k behind, which is how hard it is now for me to get a 40k jump or 50k jump. Not this impossible, but yeah, be willing to be uncomfortable, step out of your comfort zone and just think of, I always say, focus on the end result. Why do you want that 10K, 15k? Give your money a purpose. The more purpose that money has, the more reason you have to do it. Like if I think of my daughter and it's because whatever I need for her, like she started uni, I need extra money for uni.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Oh well, have that in your head.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, just be thinking in your head, like while you're doing it. Yeah, like what's the purpose? Because you know, when something has a purpose, you're more likely it's it's more of a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

You'll be stronger about it.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Yeah, when you haven't got a purpose for your money, it's like, oh, why do I why do I want it? Yeah. Your purpose might be I want to go on holiday next year and like do you know what I mean? Five star all the way. Whatever the purpose is, just think of that when you're going in, because then that 10 minutes of being uncomfortable will go really, really quickly.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Yeah, they will. And then once you walk out of that meeting, you're almost gonna be like so proud of yourself as well, isn't it? Like if you've got what you want.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah, one of my clients was like, She just wants, she always wanted a yellow feat. She said to me, like, always wanted a yellow feature. And then she just was like, she went in, did her negotiations, she was like, guess what? I'm gonna go and buy next week or yeah, yeah. But it's that, it doesn't mat doesn't have to be sometimes people think it has to be this massive fit. What do you want? Like, what is your why do you want the extra 15k? Do you just want it just to be able to say I got 15k extra? No, there's gotta be a reason you want it, even if it's just to pay bills or put food on the table. Go in and then 10 minutes. Imagine having 10 minutes of discomfort and now being really comfortable and not having to stress about money for the rest of the year. Yeah. Because you've asked for enough that covers everything that you need.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, such a good point. Such a good point. Is there any other little negotiation tactics which you prepare clients for that's like a good thing to have in mind?

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Yeah, always so always the main ones are always have your receipts and your results, so know why what you don't do matters. Ask for more than you want and have a walkaway number.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Have a walkaway number.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Always have a walk away number. Oh nice. The walkaway number is the that's the like you should never, that's the number you would, that's the lowest. Like if it's if it's less than that, I'm walking away. And walk away means you you say I don't want, but you have to then have built up again the competence and the confidence that go hand in hand to be able to say it's just a no from me. And sometimes that no will result in them coming back to you. That's what usually happens.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Because if someone else thinks you're confident, a company's like, Well, why does that person think they're that good? Now I need to know.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

That's what tends to happen in corporate world. What would you do if then if they're like, um, even if they're like, yeah, okay, maybe, but we're gonna have to get back to you, would you let it ride?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah, like so sometimes that happens. They'll say, like, okay, I know you want 25, like you were saying earlier, but can we come back to you? And the the comeback will probably be maybe 20. Yeah. Maybe 18.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

That's fine. Let them come back to you because you should have already asked for more anyway. So their comeback should never be lower than your walk away. But if it is lower than your walk away, are you ready to walk away? And have you made a plan to walk away? So what happens if they say no? Because I think we have to admit when they say no, are you ready now to look for something else? Have you, or just a simple question. I want to be on this money. What do I need to do in the next 12 weeks or the next six months to get there? I tell all my clients that.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Say to them, what am I not doing now? That's not giving me that. So, what would you like to see from me in the next three to six months? And if I achieve that, can we have another conversation about this? Those three months are gonna fly past, those six months are gonna fly past, then do that because you might not want to leave your job. So have your options. What is your walk away? Does your walk away look like I'm gonna ask them what I need to do in the next three? To six months to get that pay rise, or I'm ready to leave because actually I know my worth and I'm gonna go back out in the market and I can probably get double that. Because usually when you let's be honest, when you leave a job, it's usually easier to get a big pay hike. Um so yeah, just knowing your walk away number. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

I love that, love that so much. Now, if you if you're listening to this now and you're going, uh Yeah, Dale, I don't want to be doing what I'm doing right now and I want to move industries. Now, you said it's easier to move roles than it is to move industry. Yes. Now, I love this, but what does that actually mean?

SPEAKER_00 23:22

So sad, Stefan. So, okay, I'm just gonna use myself as an example. I was in education. I was in, I was a teacher, I was in nurseries, I was in schools. So instead of me trying to, I wanted to get into HR, wanted to get into recruitment, but I had to be strategic. So instead of me changing industry, I changed role. So I stayed in education, but started doing recruitment in education.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

So I can sell to them the fact that no, I've never been in an office, like a recruitment office, but I know your customer. I'm in education. The people you talk to are me. Do you know how good I'll be at talking to me? And you sell it. So I've had people that have been maybe in hospitality but wanted to get into tech. And I was like, oh, then target tech companies that make software programs for the hospitality industry because you're not changing industry. You can sell your industry because you've been in it, but you're just changing your role. So maybe you're gonna go from like working in a restaurant, whatever it is, but you now want to go into tech, but you're gonna go into you're gonna go into the sales side of tech, maybe, and you're gonna be like to them, oh, but I've been in hospitality. I know what hospitals I know what managers want in restaurants, I know what kind of software would work, like I know what we would use. So I'm gonna be able to now sell that.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

I've been on the floor, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

That's what it is. Yeah. So that's an easier way. And then once you've done that sidestep, so I did that. That was my sidestep. Like I went to, and it wasn't actually education, I went into health and social care, but it was very similar into recruitment. Then I went into um HR. Because then once I've got the recruitment experience, now I can actually shift that over. And you can go to any industry. So now I've worked in marketing, admin, all the industries doing recruitment, all of them doing HR. But it started with me being like, what is the closest thing to education? So I can stay in that bubble, but just switch my roles. Oh God, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Because no one thinks of it like that, do they? They think I'm in teaching and I want to be in tech, so I'm gonna now have to be innovation. Yeah, and it's daunting, especially if you're on 40k, 50k, and to do that, you're gonna have to start at 2025 again.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

To go back up.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

And it's you know, if you've got kids, family, or whatever, any type of commitment, even if you don't, that's quite a significant drop in status. Yeah, ego. It's not easy. Yeah. So you can still do it, but you just be really tactical about the move. So you almost like middle step your move.

SPEAKER_00 25:39

Yeah. Like education companies have marketing departments. If you've been a teacher, why can't you go into market if you want to get into marketing in a smaller company but that does education? Because you're selling your education experience. You're letting them know, like, all of this, but you don't have to teach me. I'm great at it. I probably know more than some of your marketers because I was on the other side. So all you're gonna have to show me is marketing. It's easier to it's an easier sell, a much easier sell than trying to just jump out of your industry altogether.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Oh, I think you're gonna change lives with that. I really do. I think it's such an interesting take because it is just usually so black and white for people. Now, obviously, looking for a job is pretty brutal. And I've been there hundreds of times. More times than I would care to say. Um but if that is you, what are some top tips that you can do to kind of keep you motivated and moving throughout that search?

SPEAKER_00 26:34

I'm gonna be really honest. This job market, one of the hardest job markets that I've seen since I've been in human resources and recruitment. And I started maybe 2007. So one of the hard like last year and this year, really hard market. So I think take that on board that everything's gonna take longer. Like, don't go into the market thinking, oh, I've been applying for the last four weeks. Why haven't I got anything yet? That's actually normal right now. So I think having that shift in your mind right now that it's gonna be a lot harder in this job market. Um, and to keep yourself on board, I always say, remember to live, to keep yourself going. Like, people get into the job search and it's like it becomes a full-time job. And then it becomes really annoying and really boring, and then you back away from it. Remember to live in between. So I say, like, look for jobs every other day, set alerts up on LinkedIn or whatever platform you've chosen to use, let the alerts come to you. Um, you haven't got to do four hours of job searching every single day. You can pick every other day and say, let's do a couple of hours every other day. Um, and again, it's like discomfort, isn't it? What's your end result? Yeah, why do I want a job? Like, write it on a wall, write it on, I like post-it notes, have them everywhere. Write on a post-it note, have it somewhere. Like, why do I want this shift? Why am I doing this? So that on the days where it feels like this is too hard, you keep pushing. But also in between, remember to live. Like, just because you're looking for a job doesn't mean like you can still go out.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

You're a human being, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

You can still you can still enjoy your family, you can still watch TV. Because sometimes I'll be working with someone and they'll be like, so stressed every day. And I'll be like, take a day off. Rest is a part of the strategy.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It really is.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Has to be part of the strategy.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

100%. Like I used to like when I would either leave a job or like one time they made my whole department redundant and outsourced it to agency, and you're just like, well, there's nothing I can do, like, what am I gonna do? I always used to either like, because my mum used to live like down by the sea.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Oh, no.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

So I just like that's it. I'm leaving London, going down there, full reset on the brain, and then do the job applying, you know, at night, have the daytime to like reset yourself, have the sunshine on your face, etc. And then when you set up to that first interview, you're just like glowing, ready to roll.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Because you've you've relaxed. Yeah, your brain isn't just focused, and sometimes you get so focused on what you're doing, you start making silly mistakes, you start missing key things, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Then your cover letter, you're making uh calling him Jim instead of John or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Rub it, like it's like when you know when you write out like a new CV and you're looking at it and you can't make head nor tail of it, but then you go and do something else, and you come back and you're like, Well, this is pretty obvious.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

What was I? How could I not see this?

SPEAKER_00 29:03

You just need to rest and have a break. So I just think rest is really important.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

We do it now with the videos, like you gotta just leave it. We're not posting it today, it's come back tomorrow. Oh, yeah, we probably should change these few things. I wonder why we didn't see that. Because you're in it too much.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yeah, so just making sure you take a step back when you look at it.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Love that. So obviously it's a tough job market at the moment, but we're seeing you know quite a lot in the press about you know businesses being very restrict around hiring as well. So showing up, you know, and being a little bit different to what's out there is important.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Yeah, it's it's really important. And again, it's this job market. If you want to land roles, it's gonna be about quality, not quantity. It's not the person who is applying to 30 jobs and very security at the wall. When you show up, you need to have those receipts from your previous jobs. What have I done? How will my skill set benefit you? Like, I really get people to focus on. Like, if you tell me you're good at communication, tell me how you communicating has helped in other companies make money or save money. Because when you show up, that's how you're gonna stand out.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Results again.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, you're not just gonna be talking about what and people like when I talk about results, they're like, I don't know you always work results. Yeah, because that's what makes a difference. That's what's gonna make you stand out. Because we're all gonna go in. Let's say most people that are applying for the job, we've all got similar experience, we've all got similar backgrounds. Yes, personality is a key thing as well. So you need to make sure your personality comes through so that they can see if you're gonna be a good fit with the team. But what makes me different? If both of us go in, we've both got the same degree, we've both got the same experience. Why me and not them? Because I can tell you why, I can tell you why, because I've got my receipts. They might have told you, oh yeah, I'm a great team player, I'm a great communicator. I'm gonna tell you the same things, but I'm gonna tell you why you need that. I'm gonna say I'm a great communicator, because of that, I'm really likable. It means that it helps me retain customers because customers love me, so they always want to come back. They have just given you one receipt. Versus I could have just said, great at communicating.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

And left it there.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Like you stand out by telling, you know how like on social media we both create content? Storytelling. People are nosy. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that woman who did the full, 40, like telling telling her story about her ex-husband or whatever, and everyone watched it and it became this big thing. Go into your interviews and storytell. I teach all my clients, just storytelling. Tell them like, oh, this happened to me in my old job. Like, I used to work with a manager and this was the problem, and this is how I fixed it.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Stories are believable. They make you stand out because after the interview, I I'm on the other side of interviewing. I interview thousands of people. I'm like, do you remember that girl when she was talking about um that thing? Do you remember when that happened to us the other day? Yeah. That person's now can I remember to her because she's relatable and she's told a story. Stories feel like evidence even when you weren't there. I feel like the reason a lot of people believe everything on social media is because someone's telling a story and the story feels believable.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

You go into an interview, tell a story. Talk about what you've done in the form of a story. Like give real examples. Don't like give a real example. Like if I'm telling you I've saved money, I'm gonna give you a real example. We had this situation where this was happening, X happened. So then I had this idea that we should do Y, and then the result was Z. Tell the story. Just doesn't need to be long, little mini story, but it is very relatable.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Would you go another step further and say either a like look at the company or that area and that role, and then go, oh, they're missing that. And then tell them that they are.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Absolutely. Like tell or tell them like first tell them what you love. So sandwich of it, love what I loved about you, what I think you could improve, and then something else really good about them. And also connect yourself to it. So like I really like that the company I work for now does um work with ex-Affendors and they have some sustainability programs. I found all that by like, not you don't go to the first page of the website, that's what everyone does. No, yeah. First page, oh, you've been in business for 40 years. You need to dig a little bit deeper. Yeah, find out more about that company, what they do. And then, like you said, like if I'm talking about ex-Affendors, I might be like, oh, I had an idea of that in this area because I'm really interested in this. Do you guys already do this? And if it's something they do, they'll be like, Oh, yeah, we do, right? You've got a relatable conversation. If it's nothing they don't do, they'll be like, Oh, she's a bit impressive. She's really looked into what we do, what we like.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Either way, you've won.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

You've won, literally. What awards have they won recently that you can connect to maybe your real life? Like I know people that really live a sustainable life. So if you're working to go to a company and you can see they do sustainability initiatives, talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Yeah. Get in. And put you on the eco-friendly part of the team and stuff like that. You know, but it's true, because a panel like having to clean up the carbon initiative. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Follow people, go online, find find their LinkedIn. Yeah. Just be nosy. Yeah, yeah. I do.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

I I do. I I sometimes even speak to people that used to work there and always did used to do the um, like I'd message someone like quite juniors in the team, just be like, hey, I'm turning to X, Y, and Z, like how you finding it right now. Because and sometimes they like give you some golden nuggets, and you're like, oh my god, this is unbelievable. Um yeah, I'm quite lucky. I I can talk the talk. Who knows if I can walk the walk? Uh you have to ask my old managers. But um the um but I'm quite lucky because uh that's how that alone has served me well. Um if you're a more of like an introverted person and you struggle with those types of situations, how do you sort of gear yourself up to be? Because like I feel like everybody feels like they need to approach anyone. They're like, hi, you know, and they just like put this whole thing, it's not them.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

It's not the who they really it's not who they really be.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

What do you do? Because you and I know I know if you're introverted, you're thinking about that.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Yeah, absol absolutely. So it will it will probably shock you. I'm actually an introvert. People never believe me. They're like, Adele, you're very extroverted. I'm very confident speaking about things that I know about.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

It's my zona genius. I I will always come across as super confident online speaking about this, but putting me in a room with a massive group of people, probably be the one standing near the back. I'm probably the one that someone has to call on. Like, so when we're when we're in team meetings, sometimes my boss will be like, Adele, I know you've got an idea. I'll be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, because I won't naturally just be like, oh guys, have you thought about this? It's just not my natural nature. Yeah. Um, I think I've learned I've been in corporate for so long, I've learned to work against who I naturally maybe am. But I think for introverts, something that's really key, well, I find that was really key for me when I first to get my confidence up before interviews was writing out why they would want me as much as I want the job.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Oh, nice. So I used to it's like an affirmation in a way, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Yeah, so it's like affirming to myself why would they want me? And I'd write that out before I'd go to any interview, like just okay, why what are the things that I can do that they would want me for? Um, it just gives you that little bit of boost, reminding myself that it's the quality of the answers, not whether I'm really loud. You don't have to be the loudest in the room to get your point across. You just need to say something that really hits home with someone. So, as an introvert, the easiest thing we can do is like um research the company and have real key things that we can talk about because we're not necessarily gonna always have the gift of the gab or be able to talk the talk.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Yeah, it's so true, it's so true. And one of the things that people think in interviews is that salary is their only tool.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

You've got a completely different spin on this. In your opinion, what are the other things people should be negotiating in a job interview?

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Annual leave. Okay, that's my favourite. Annual leave. Annual leave. I'll negotiate annual leave, but I think you have to think of lifestyle. I think you have to think of lifestyle. What's important to you? What do you need? I like to travel a lot. I travel like four or five times a year. Annual leave, paid annual leave is as important to me as the money. And if you think about it logically, like if someone said to me, Oh, if you take 2K less, but I'll give you like eight days annual leave, I'll take the eight days annual leave. Because that 2K is gonna get eaten up by tax anyway, I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

So those ends up the same.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

It's gonna end up the same, or a bit more because them eight days are fully paid.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Plus you've got the time.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Plus I've got the time off. So I love annual leave. Um, I'll always try and negotiate my annual leave if I can, especially if companies don't have great annual leave. I'll try and negotiate more days. And usually the way I go in is I ask for a higher salary, they're negotiating me down. Then I say, Oh, okay, well, you can't pay me what I want. What if you give me a couple days extra annual leave? No, okay. Most companies don't think about it when they say yes until you start taking it.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

Yeah, because it's like number, is it?

SPEAKER_00 38:27

Yeah, yeah, because it's not a big number. It's like, oh, she wanted the extra five days' annual leave. Give it to her until you start taking it. Then they're like, wait, and you position it correctly through the year and you were like, offer a really long time, and they're like, how? So that's really good. Pension, asking for them to elevate your pension, that's a massive one. Yeah. Um, anyone who's listening who's in corporate, one thing they will always say to me is you can't negotiate outside a corporate contract. Yes, you can. I mean, HR, I've seen many an NDA. Many of your colleagues have extra annual leave and extra. I'm one of those people where you have to sign an NDA and I can't disclose to you. So I'll tell my colleague, oh, I'm taking like um some unpaid time off. Actually, it's not. I'm just not allowed to tell you that it was paid because I'm outside of the normal standard contracts. Um, that's not in my current job, guys. But in previous jobs. Um, so yeah, so things like that. But pension. Or is it? Where is it? Pension. I've definitely negotiated pension. I've negotiated things like a parking spot. It sounds really silly, but I wanted to drive to work every day. So I said, can you get me a permit? And then my boss looked into it and was able to get me a permit for like where we were located because we was like in an area where they had permit, and I got a permit for the year. It just meant I didn't have to take the train. Like it sounds silly, but I think of what can this company. I think of everything I'm doing when I turn up every day and how much I'm giving to the company. Yeah. And then I think about what I can negotiate. And majority of these things I've negotiated either in person or like when I've been at a job, I'm an email warrior. So I'll write out everything why I should get it in my email, send it across so they can have a read, and then I'll go and have a conversation with them. So that's another tip for introverts. If you are worried to go and ask straight away.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Pre-send.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Pre-send, pre-send your email. I do that a lot. Pre-send email.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Because yeah, as an introvert, when you get nervous, you've you miss all your words. Like you miss every point. If you've already sent the email, they'll now go back and forth with you on this email that you've already sent. So that was always something I did when I first started negotiating. Great, too. Yeah. So whereas now I'm a bit more confident, but those emails, gold. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

So things like also following up after, right?

SPEAKER_00 40:28

Yes. Like, how did you get my email? Like, and I know we had the conversation, but also, and then you can add stuff in. Like, it just helped. Like, emails just help when you're not that comfortable just saying things out front or taking notes into a meeting with you if it's one-on-one and then having that conversation. But yeah, annual leave, pension. There's so many things you can get um your qualifications paid for.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Yep. Training.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Training. Like what's important to you? What is it that you need right now that's going to help you? And I always say, look at your long-term plan future-wise. What how's that going to help you? Um, I've negotiated part-time hours for full-time money.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Work from home?

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Yes, work from home. Um, work from home for me now in this market, it's really hard. People try and do it at their first interview. Listen, when they've got six other people that are willing to say they'll work in the office, and you said, no, I definitely want to work from, it's too early, but you can start a job, be great. Like I said, them first 90 days, negotiate remote work. I was remote working way before this, like 2017, 2016. I was like, oh, can I get two days, like, can I work from home one day? And I'd just try my luck. And I'd always say, can I try it? And if it doesn't work, happy to go back. Like when I first ever negotiated part-time hours for the same salary, I was like, don't want to lose my salary, but I only want to work four days. I thought, let me try four days. They were like, oh no, we don't think that's gonna work. I said, listen, if it doesn't work and for any reason, targets change, team's not working, I'll be right back here. I knew I was gonna make it work because I'm not coming back. So I made it work. And then when that worked, then I could ask for three days. And it's but it's just being tactical and strategic, but definitely work from home. Hybrid is more a thing now, more than fully remote. But if you're great at your job and you become hard to replace, they are much more willing to give you what you want. I think some people forget that's an even exchange. What are you giving? What are you telling them that you've done for them or can do for them for them to want to give you remote work?

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

No one's giving you remote work just because you want it. It's an even exchange. I give you something, you give me something. So I'm asking you for remote work because I'm gonna continue to do X, Y, Z. I'm gonna do it even better, and I'll prove it to you. Can we try it out for like three months? Ah, it's just these subtle little things that just change the game, innit? Literally. Because it doesn't sound as hard as just saying, I want pretty remote work. It doesn't sound as harsh when I'm like, can we try it out?

SPEAKER_01 42:45

So you're almost like unpacking everything that could happen in that situation beforehand and being prepared emotionally, but also like you're you've just got your game on. So like it this could happen and I'm gonna do this. And if this happens, I'm gonna do this. Yes. And if they don't give me the five grand, I'm on him three more days extra on pay. And I want a 1% pension increase. Right. Well, let's chat about that. Yeah, let's chat about that. And then because then they're gonna be like, whoa. And it's almost like you put them on, and then they just go, yeah, all right, then yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll give you something. Exactly. There you go, right? Yo, you've got something. So yeah, oh wow, they're such good advice. Now, like, what in your eyes is like when you're going into an interview, like, what's one of the biggest like red flags for you that you'd see people do too often? Like, you've sat for a thousand.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Oh, what that people do, or that the interviewer, like so what the actual candidates do.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

The actual candidates do, so they could don't have they can not make these mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Do not slag off your current company. I know you people want to be honest, but don't be too honest. The only time I don't believe in lying on CVs or in interviews, but when it comes to your current job or your previous job, if it was a bad situation, you lie. Okay, and you don't even need to lie, you you divert from oh, why are you leaving your last company? Oh, do you know what? It was great there, but it didn't give me enough of this. And the this should be something in that new job that they have a lot of.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Because again, you want to make connections.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

You want to connect it, and then you can just divert and say, but I noticed on your role, you do a lot of that, and with my skill of this, I'll be able to contribute this. So divert. It's not necessarily lying, but you don't. That's one of the biggest red flags. If you come into an interview and it doesn't matter how great the interview is, if you talk badly about your past company, I think you're problematic. I automatically am like, you're problematic, and you don't know how to, you don't know how to say, you don't know there's a time and a place. I think that's an important thing, like professionalism. If you're good with working in corporate, even if it's 100% true, was this interview the right time for you to say that?

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Yeah, that's so true. Because, like, yeah, like actually you know immediately. And also you just kind of know that they're quite likely to moan about the task that they're given.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

That's what it comes across as. And it might not be, they might be great, but it comes across as like, you know, misery loves company. Yeah. Comes across as like, are you gonna be the person now that comes in and the first thing you don't like, you're just moaning to everyone, or you're the person who's gonna be like, in my even if you didn't like your last company, in my last company, we did it like this. Or in my last, and it just feels like you've just done really well, but now you've just come in and you've just literally ripped into your like that is such a red flag to me. And also if you can't tell me, and this depends on the level you're at, if you're quite mid-management, senior management, if you can't tell me how you make an impact in a company, red flag automatically. Because then I just feel like you push papers around your desk.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Totally, totally. Is there any more that you think of? Like, is it in terms of like is let's say they're they're they're just talking away, talking away. Is there something that you're like you catch on to quite a lot?

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Yeah, like if you if there's no context to what you're talking about, like you know something. People just talking to fill the air.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

It's okay to be quiet.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

It's okay in an interview to say your answer.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Take pause.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

And just take a pause. It's okay to ask them to repeat a question, take a pause, then answer the question. Sometimes you don't have to feel the silence. The same with in an interview when people say what salary expectation have you got and you say your number, then they keep talking. That's a red flag. I automatically know that I can get that person's number down. So if I ask you what your salary expectation is and you say 40k. Oh, but and you keep talking about any any just random stuff, you're filling the air. I'm like, ah, this person's not confident. I'm gonna be able to negotiate you down. Because remember, my job, whether HR or recruitment, is to see how much I can save my company on budget. So then I'm like, you've given me the red flag, you've literally waved the red flag in my face and said to me, I'm not confident. So silence shows confidence because you say your answer and you just stop talking. People feel that energy, like, oh okay, you're a bit cocky, but like they feel that energy. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

I definitely absolutely suck at that, but I'm kicking myself now because I'm like, damn, I could have earned loads more money. Wish I'd have met a devil before.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

People don't like the silence. I don't, I don't think that bit.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

I'm good at stopping when I know I need to stop in the interview. Because I'm like, okay, I need to shut up now and let like myself do because I'll just speak to forever, otherwise. But then it's the like, I want 65 grand. And I did, I just know, I know, I can remember doing it. And I didn't know that actually the key moment there was just yeah, I want 65 grand.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

That's it, that's what I want.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Would you s would you throw the Chris at like what are your thoughts on that, or would you just know I would I want 65,000?

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Like you could say, and it depends on where you are. Like now that I've had got more understanding of the role, I know the scope of the role, um, 65,000 will be what I'm looking for. Do you think you can meet me there?

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

And then just quiet so that they can respond. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

How do you handle it where on the job description there's no salary?

SPEAKER_00 47:53

I hate that so much. Um that's a lot now. A lot of jobs now um don't have the money on there. So a couple things. Go on to places like Glassdoor, salary.com. Old employees have put information on there. Yeah. You can usually find what the old or the most recent banding was. You can have a look and say, you want to be in that band. The other thing I tell everyone to do is you should already have. Remember, I was talking earlier about your walkaway number, you should also have your outrageous number. Tell everyone to have an outrageous number. That's more than you actually want. Your actual number that you want and your walk away. Are you ready to go in and at least say the actual, like 5k above your actual number? So if they've not put their salary on there and I know I'm looking for 50k and they've put nothing on there, then I'm gonna be putting on that, no matter what, I'm gonna be asking for about 55 because I know I want 50. But I'm gonna try and do as much research as I can. What's the industry norm? What does that company make? Location's really important as well. Like you can't be in London comparing London to outside London and expect the salary. You could do this exact same role and the money will be totally different.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

Yeah, York is not gonna be the same role.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Yeah, so always can add in your location, add in your experience, add in all of that, but and also ask. Sometimes people are really scared to ask, but most jobs do a screening call now before you have the next call. Don't make that your first question. When you ask about money first, it sometimes puts companies off there a bit like, oh, but make sure you ask it. So say, like, oh, I noticed that you didn't have a salary on there. I know the industry norm. I like to tell them what the salary should be. So I'll say, um, I know the industry norm's about 60, 70k. So I just was making sure that that's sort of where we're aligned. See what their response is.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Because they're gonna, they have to say something. They're either gonna say, like, oh yeah, we're aligned, or they're gonna be like, oh no, we were thinking of, and they're gonna tell you a lower number. And then at that point you can start to have a little bit of a conversation. But yeah, just ask. Ask on the screening call, but ask other questions first. So ask about the job role, say you're really interested in the role, and then make it like almost a secondary thought. Like, oh, also, I just realized you don't have the salary on. So don't make it like a big deal. Make it really chilled out. Anything you don't care about, they don't care about. Anything you make a big deal, they'll make a big deal. Yeah. Just make it like it's not a big deal. Say, oh, I just I just realized you didn't have the salary on there. I know the industry norm is about this. I just wanted to check that that's what it was. And if I'm really honest, my current role that I do, my part-time role that I do now, they didn't have the salary advertised. So I knew what number I wanted. So I went in with that number, just a bit higher. They gave it to me.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

And I was like, I got more.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

It was too easy, it was too easy, and that's why I said to you, but but I'm happy because it was still the salary I wanted anyway. I got what I wanted, but I know for a fact they were like, because they said a number, and I was like, no, no, no, my expectation was this. And they were like, oh, okay, give me a minute. Oh, yeah, that's fine. And I thought that was too easy. I was like, so I feel like I'm at least five, 10k lower than I should be at the moment. Sorry, sorry, I didn't actually mean I didn't mean to, I mean, 500. So I in all honesty, when they don't show the salary, it can be really hard. But I always say, know the number you want, ask for a little bit more. And if you get it like I did really easily, you should still be happy because I knew that's what I wanted. I got exactly what I wanted. So a little bit more than I wanted. So I'm super happy. Although in the back of my mind, I know I could have got more.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Do you pull out if they're lower?

SPEAKER_00 51:15

I I I I have in some cases, and in some cases I haven't. Really depends on how much lower. And if I think I can negotiate.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

Yeah, and it's a big company, you're like, I can reckon I could get it there.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Yeah, like recently, I was speaking about this recently. Someone I would work with, she wanted, she's doing part-time work, she wanted 38k. Um, no, she wanted 40k, sorry. The job was only advertised up to 36. She asked for 40, they gave her 38. So she still was above what they said. Also, just from a HR perspective, there's always more money in the pot for the right candidate. So if we're advertising 100 to 120, I've probably got 130k, 125 at least. I've got a 5k buffer at least, because for the right candidate, I'm gonna throw a little bit of money at you.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Well, it's gonna make 10. You're looking at it from a company perspective, and you're doing 10 times more than getting hired.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Yeah, everything's benchmarked.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

And we benchmark to save our company money. Yeah. But we know that we can go 10k above because I've benchmarked it lower than what even the market might be to get the candidate. I mean, I've done it as money.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

I've done it in every single business I worked on, even the current one right now. Like, if someone is b better than what we advertised, and they you you think they ain't gonna come around again.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

You pay them right? You pay them right. And that's what I've that's what I've said to people. People always say, Oh, that's not possible. Yeah, the company will say that we've only got 80k. They've got 90 for the right candidate. And that's the key thing. A lot of people will be like, oh, they got 90. I'm just gonna ask for 90. You have you got your receipts? Have you got your evidence? Are you in a 90k person? Like, do they want you at 90k, or are you just the are you answering questions the same as everyone else? Then you're not you're not getting that extra. But yeah, there's usually extra in the pot. So it really depends on how, like, if I want 60 and the job is paying max 40, I'm not going to that interview. Because that 20, I can't be bothered. That's that's a 20k that I'm trying to push you for. If it's five, six K, but I'll still probably go for the interview because there might be that I can negotiate annually, which feels like a bait rise.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Yeah, or pension.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Same money for less day. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

100%, 100%. So um, those companies that they're not advertising roles, there's stuff you can still do, but doesn't mean don't put yourself off. Because if you see yourself in that job description, you're like, okay, that sounds great. Like, you still want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

And you might get the title. Like, I had a job where they didn't, they paid me 5k less than I wanted, but they gave me such a big HR title, I can use that anywhere. So I knew when I took that job I wasn't gonna stay.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Yeah, like group or H even manager or whatever that is a step down.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

I was a HR lead. I was a HR lead. I knew I could be a director after that. Yeah. Took the job, I knew I wasn't staying. I knew they probably got me for six months, max. I'd already started looking for something else. But because I had that title now, I can go anywhere and command because other companies see that title and they're like, oh, she gets a lot of money.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Actually, I wasn't. I was on really crap money, it would only look good on paper. But I took the job because I knew that title was going to help me long term in my career. So it was more of a strategic move. That's the only time I'll consider like maybe a lower salary because it's a strategy. When my daughter was young, I wanted to work near home. Made sense for me to take a slightly lower salary because I wanted to be bright near home. Saying that I negotiated more within three months. So it's all checks and talents, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

I mate, I used to do that. I like I love that you said that because it's like the um I went from quite a big company, quite a big, I say it was quite big, you know, there's a hundred plus in the head office, and then I went to a company with five people. Oh wow. But I went from marketing manager to head of marketing because I was the only marketing person. Exactly. So title. So it's like great. And then I leveraged that and then it never went backwards.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Because now you've got the head of marketing title. It's the same thing. Like I've been an ops director, now I've had that title. I've had the title. It doesn't matter if I was not paid great when I had it, I'll be great, paid great going forward. Same thing. So, what you were saying earlier when you were saying you went from big company to small company, just look in the title, and yeah, that's it, that's who I am now.

SPEAKER_01 54:58

Sometimes it's worth that five grand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh oh, that's such good advice. Thinking about this, could you negotiate the title in the interview?

SPEAKER_00 55:06

Absolutely. That's another thing you can negotiate. Everything is up for negotiation, including stationary if you want to. But yeah, you can negotiate the title. So you could say, okay, you're not paying me, like, okay, I know I wanted this much. Um, now I've looked at all the responsibilities of the role. Actually, it leans more towards this title. Can we talk about that title, please? Like, is that something we could have a conversation about? Or does that title already exist in your company? If not, could I be the head of services? Could you make this role for me? Like, I've had a company make a role for me because I was gonna leave. So they just made up a title. Like, it wasn't a real job. They gave me like three extra grand and a new title, but they were like, Why are you leaving? I was like, Oh, because I need to progress. And they there was no room for progression because the next job was the like HR director, and that person wasn't going anywhere. So they were like, Okay, so what if we make you the head of HR? Like, just I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

But yeah, you can negotiate titles. So you can actually negotiate titles at interviews. You can say, like, oh, title's great, but because we haven't been able to come together on whether it was annual leave, whatever it was, can we look at the job title? Because in the industry, maybe it's known as something else. You know, some companies will call like the head of HR will be the head of people.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Yeah, or like chief or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

Or like a title that's not, yeah, very American, or it's not, it's not known in the industry. Get the title. Smaller companies, especially, will negotiate a title. They'll give you whatever title you want. Yeah. Ask for the title. So, yeah, that's a that's a good thing to negotiate as well.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

Do you feel like it's important to like have so like let's say, for example, you're uh, you know, people manager or whatever, or services manager, but you there's no one else in the team? Do you think that's odd, or would you just take it?

SPEAKER_00 56:46

I'd I'd still take it because I'm I'm the people manager. I'll be like, I work across multi-departments, like because I don't have necessarily my own department. Yeah. But that's the title you kind of want. And you'll say it was a smaller company, um, whatever it is, however you want to position it, but definitely titles. And I'm also a believer when you talk about titles as well, even on your CV, change your title to match your responsibilities. And then you can have a conversation about your interview.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

I've done it before, I've snuck it up a touch on the LinkedIn thing.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

Because if I'm if I'm the head of people, that title was definitely gonna say head of HR. Yeah. On my CV, it's definitely gonna say head of HR because that's what I, if you look at all my responsibilities, then when I'm at interview, I'll explain to them. Listen, my actual title, when you go for my references, is gonna say head of people, but it's the same as head of HR. The reason I put HR is because that's what's wider known in our industry. My job description is exactly the same as a HR minimum.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

I've skipped over me.

SPEAKER_00 57:35

Yeah, so and you wouldn't have looked at me. It's never been an issue for me that changing a job title. I know people are always like, oh, you can't change the jobs.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Yeah, yeah, I've done it. Yeah, yeah, sometimes it has to be done to get where you need to be. Um so when you're looking at a candidate, and obviously CV, we know it's important, right? We can't everyone knows that.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

You've got to have a CV.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

You've got to have a CV and it's gotta be good, guys. Like, and if you need help, speak to it out.

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Um But look, CVs I've seen all manner of CVs from, but I I can usually tell in literally ten seconds whether or not a person's good.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

Funny that you said that. Recruiters, six seconds. You've got six seconds to impress a recruiter. That's an that's an average statistic for any recruiter or HR person looking at a CV. Ten seconds, like that's normal. Like people think you're reading the whole CV, you're not. If I get a third of the way in and I haven't seen anything, you're probably not gonna make it. I always say to people, why is your best stuff at the very bottom of your CV? Yeah, yeah. No one read it.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Yeah, 100%. I do that, I go boom, yeah, and then you go, interesting. And then you go up, and then you start reading a little bit, and then you again you'll skip. And then if you he they've got to catch you on the second or third of the like, ooh, ooh, ooh. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 58:50

Impact.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

And it so it's all about that impact. Because then usually I like used to do it. I'd be like, oh, they weren't there. Yeah, and then oh, they did that. Oh, interesting. I know that. And like that's when you're away. Yeah. And it's that's a winner for me, usually. But on the subject of that, you've got digital TVs, which is LinkedIn. And how important do you feel like LinkedIn is in 2025?

SPEAKER_00 59:12

I think it's really important now. I feel like employers are going to your LinkedIn, regardless of what you've sent them, they're searching you on social media. Immediately they're going to see if you've got LinkedIn. Even Instagram these days. Like, I've been in offices where they're like, let's take a quick look at the TikTok or let's take a look at the I'm like, not really relevant, guys, but people are nosy. So yeah, LinkedIn, especially really important. She does dancing videos. Like, what's she over to like people are really nosy? So it's like LinkedIn is really good because you can, your about section in LinkedIn, you can kind of sell yourself a little bit. Like if you're not great at necessarily always selling over the phone, your LinkedIn about section and your headline.

SPEAKER_01 59:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Your LinkedIn headline. So yeah, you don't just have to be the head of people. You can be the person who changes like um ambitious projects into like realities. Like you can, the title can be anything. Give yourself a title and then give yourself a little hook.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

And then in your about section, tell us about you. And then in your the CV part of your thing, you can keep it similar to your CV because your CV should be targeted anyway, should be talking about achievements over duties anyway. So, but yeah, LinkedIn I think is such a key thing just to have nowadays. Like, people will just go to your LinkedIn, be impressed, and then be like, oh, okay. Like, I know my company definitely looks at my LinkedIn before they gave me the job. My first week, my boss was like, I see you've got a podcast. How did you see that? Because she was on my LinkedIn. Like, they they're looking on your LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

TV is like, you know, XYZ viewed your profile. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so having a good look at the LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

So yeah, I think it like that digital footprint can actually help you. Because for some people, their LinkedIn is stronger than their CV.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:50

Yeah. I always change mine. Yeah. So I don't like have them the same, even if it's like basically saying the same thing and just says it in a different, sometimes more expansive way. Yeah. Because if they've made it there, then they're probably doing some proper digging.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

And they want to know more about you, 100%. So I think LinkedIn is like, it's almost like your shop front, like a personal brand now is as important as ever in your in 2025. Having your own personal brand really helps your career overall.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:17

And LinkedIn is your personal brand. That's your storefront. That's you showcasing who you are, what you can do, and then people can find you and they can use like that way. You'll also get recruiters reaching out to you without you having to apply for stuff if your LinkedIn is a really strong LinkedIn. You still get it now. I'm like, I run a business now, guys. Like, please leave me alone. Exactly the same. Like they'll be reaching out, and I'm like, they'll be like, I can say you're a coach, but um, are you interested? No, no, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Do you want to come do open this hospitality venue in London? Do it all right. Like, I those days are dumb for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

Absolutely, but they love it. And that means that just shows you've got a good LinkedIn. Yeah. Good keywords, good skill section. Like, you've got the information in there that you're interested in.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Result, result, result, result, result. I'm like, did this, made five million, did this, made X million. Like, and it's like they're like, oh, that's why it was every I was quite lucky that like um some of the venues that we opened, like ballooned and boomed, and they were enormous. Right. So like I'm like, made with a company turnover of 12.5 million pounds. See, so you can raise that from year one to year two to 16 million, and they're like, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

But you can really show off. And that's what I think that's really important. And anyone who's listening who doesn't necessarily have the big numbers, remember, even keeping a company compliant saves them money.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

Yeah, totally, yeah, 100%. So make X, Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

Yes, find a way to make the results. Like someone said to me once I'm a teacher, I don't have um any results. I said, Don't you impact Ofsted? She was like, Oh. I was like, You currency, think of the currency in your job. Yeah. NHS, currently, they want to get waiting times down. How do you impact waiting times? Have that on your CV. Like, people aren't thinking about what's the currency in your job. Everyone's currency isn't actual and money and that. Yeah, direct and indirect impact is what you're looking at when you think of your results.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:02

Oh my god, that's such good advice. And I love this. I feel like I literally could just talk to you for hours, but I need to let you go home.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

It's been good. I love it. I hope that hope everyone got like some good bits from it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

No, there's so much value in there. I'm gonna have to get you back on in the future. Um, because honestly, I feel like there's just a load more I wanted to ask you as well. But um, we'll get around to it. I had like all about AI and all that stuff as well. But we're never gonna get there, otherwise you'll be here all night. Um, but where can people find you if they do want to come like reach out and learn from you? You mentioned the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

Yep, you can find me on my podcast, Five for Two Careers. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm always on LinkedIn, Adele Thompson. Find me on there. I'm verified on there because you know how these people like to have fake accounts of you, but LinkedIn, I'm over there. So reach me on LinkedIn or my website, atnrich.com. So yeah, just reach out. Drop me a message. I love to chat with people in the messages. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Amazing. I've loved this. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Thank you for having me. It's been great.