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The Money Gains Podcast
Welcome to the Money Gains Podcast, where we talk all things money and how to grow your bank balance. Hosted by Sammie Ellard-King, Money Content Creator of the Year 2024, we chat with the sharpest minds in personal finance to give you real, actionable advice – no fluff, no jargon.
Whether you're skint, smashing it, or somewhere in between, we’re here to help you make smarter money moves.
The Money Gains Podcast
Dating App CEO Reveals: Why Finding Love Has Never Been So Expensive (Jamie Johnston)
Is there a hidden tax to being single?
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In this episode of the Money Gains Podcast we welcome Jamie from Mattr to the show.
Mattr is the UK's first lifestyle app for single people and Jamie talks about how there is far more to being single than dating, the financial realities single people are facing and the toxic influence of social media on dating expectations
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Mattr https://www.mattr.social/
Jamie on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/datingwithjamie_/
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✅ Why the average London date costs £260 and how this pricing is driving Britain's singles crisis
✅ How dating apps exploit dopamine responses more harmfully than alcohol
✅ Why being single costs you £10,000 more per year than couples
✅ How to have financial conversations with potential partners without awkwardness
✅ Why investing in a dating app subscription could be your most important financial decision
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This video is meant for educational purposes and should not be considered financial advice. When you invest your capital is at risk. Past performance is not a guarantee of future success.
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So Jamie, welcome to Man Again's Podcast man. How are you?
SPEAKER_01:I'm very well, Sammy. How are you? For context, we've known each other a little while, haven't we? We have indeed. In 2020. No, more than but no, 2014, I think. Is it 2014? Round then. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I was doing a bunch of sales jobs and we ended up on the same sales floor, really. We did, yeah. What was it for?
SPEAKER_01:Ingenuity, right? Ingenuity, yeah. You uh you came in and took an extremely popular high salesperson's desk and everyone's like, who's this guy coming in? George Van his name. Uh who went to Australia and then you came and took his seat and uh made everyone know who Sammy was.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I do remember it well because like me and you used to battle for top spot.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And then we like they were always like, Who are these two like absolute lunatics? And then for a while, like we used to be a little bit hostile to each other, and then we had a Friday like drinks and music session. Oh, yeah. And you put Garage on. That's it. And then I was like, Oh, that's your eye, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think, yeah, that was the start of uh our relationship, the bonding over some UKG. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:And you know, we've been good friends for a while, and it is interesting because our friendship group, like, I it's amazing, really. Like, there's we've got so many powerhouses in our friendship group, like heads of departments, or you know, just absolutely killing it in business or doing something. And it is really eye-opening. Like, I've never met a group of people that has just and they're they were all your friends from school as well. And I you know have happily integrated into it, um, which is just amazing. And I feel like we all push each other, which is so nice, and we back each other, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think what's what's great about it is while we all push each other, we're still very much happy to see people succeed. I think we've done them very well at doing our own things and being successful in our own individual rights without feeling bitter and jealous. And, you know, whenever you put something that you've worked hard on or you succeeded in the WhatsApp group, like everyone's there like buzzing. And I think it is actual genuine buzzing for each other. It's not like, oh God, I'll just chuck a like at this because I have to, you know. I think actually we do care about each other, which is great. And I think it's you know, it's it's an amazing testament. Like you said, like you've kind of come into our friendship group, but I've known those boys for 20 years now, and we still see each other nearly every week, not all of them, but I still see nearly one of them every week. So it helps out one of them lives on my road. So that I just see him sometimes in the shop, but we do make an effort and we're still pretty tight in it. Even though people have got married, had one, two children, we're still making an effort to kind of to kind of hang out, and we're we're doing that after this podcast.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, excited. Few few Guinness is in the Irish pub. Yes, that's to be done. I know. But you've done some big things recently. You've gone and launched Matter, yeah. Um, and you're on a mission to change dating, yeah, and a big part of modern dating, and you're really trying to fix this. And so give us the 411.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. So, what is matter? So, matter is really the world's first lifestyle app for single people. We've had like online dating in terms of uh websites and things like that, and that transferred into kind of very swiping-based apps. Then we had like niche community apps and things like that. And what actually matter is trying to do is look at all aspects of a single person's life. I mean, dating is just one part of it, just connecting with people, and then the apps do nothing. Like, where do you go? You know, where can you meet people offline? You know, in real life has become a really big thing. So the whole premise of what we do is consolidate and excuse the pun with that, but consolidate everything into one product. So, yes, I can meet people online in a non-fatiguing type of way, one that's mental health conducive, because I think that's very important, and we'll come onto that a bit more later. But where do I then go with these people? Where are places I can go to get ready for the dates, like hair salons, spray tans, whatever it is, all of this kind of dating singles economy is massive. And then also the rise of in real life, like since the pandemic, everyone's just craving that in real life connection. I know the pandemic was half a decade ago, but it just going up and up and up. So singles events and trying to remove, I think everyone's really tired of the phone, you know. And so what we try and do is very much limit that. So imagine you're single, you're in a city, you're like, I want to meet someone, could be online, could be offline. I also want to find some cool spots to go to. Instead of needing bumble Tinder, hinge, open table, chat GBT, Google, I just click on matter and it's like, here are all the events going on in my city, here are all the cool spots, and I can get a discount limit, and here are all the people I can meet who are legitimately good people. I think the thing where our difference is is we we base our product from the digital connections point of view on radical transparency and authenticity and openness. So we provide a real safe space for you to be quite vulnerable about who you are as a person because weirdly, vulnerability is the most sought-after quality in a potential partner. Oh, really? Yeah. 93% of people voted that the highest in anonymous survey that hinge did, by the way. So it's not even us. So above height, above looks, above money was how willing were they to emotionally connect with me. And yet no product's been able to crack the safe space kind of, you know, like great, like everyone's successful. Like you mentioned, and that's amazing. Obviously, we'll talk about kind of jobs and things, but who is Sammy? What's Sammy about? Like, forget up the games, forget podcasts, who's Jamie? What am I about? Like, what are my core values and beliefs and who as I as a person? Because this could all end tomorrow. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, tomorrow's promise to no one, and these types of things can all all change. God forbid they don't. But your values and who you are and what you believe in will hopefully always remain true. And I think that's the most important thing when picking a partner, and yet we haven't been able to get that onto a digital sphere, which is what we're what we're really trying to do.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, it's excellent what you're doing. I think it's it's it's really first class, and you're tackling a massive problem at the moment. And you know, I know I had a stint on the dating apps for about a couple of months, and that's all I lasted. Because I couldn't deal with this just sheer volume of it, and uh, it was very like it felt almost gambly and dopamine heavy, and uh you kind of get that from short form content in a lot of ways these days. But I want to move on to because uh there's a large part of this is obviously money related, and we're on a money-related podcast, but the the the comparisons to 10 and 20 years ago and how people basically see money and how it brings such a big role into dating. Like, for you, what are you looking at there in terms of like what it was like 20 years ago to what it's like now in today's society?
SPEAKER_01:Well, there's two things to look at here. I think one, just the cost of dating has gone stratospheric. Okay, like, and we could we could do a whole podcast on that, but just constant. I mean, you was to work in the hospitality industry for a long time. The hospitality industry, I think it's the third, maybe the third biggest employer or something like that, in the top three biggest employees in this country. And it's constantly, I feel, hammered with regressive taxation. You know, we've just had this national insurance uh rise along with a minimum wage rise. And they have to pass that that on to the to the customer. So it's you know, I mean, I'll give you an example of how shocked it was. I paid, I I bought my first ever, well, I didn't buy it, my my friend did. Thank God it was his round, and then we left. But the first£10 pint,£10 uh£10 pint.£10 pint, yeah.£10 was it in a plastic cup? No, it wasn't, thank God. It was in a glass, but it was flat as anything. Uh, but yeah,£10,£10.10,£10.15. Wow. Asahi on the Fulham Road. Um, I won't name the place, but yeah. Uh so we're getting there. I mean, that you know, that's an anomaly right now, but we we're we're definitely getting there. So a couple of pints now is like 20, 20, could be getting up to 20 pounds. And you know, that used to be a whole night out for me. Like 20 quid. I'm uh, you know, when I was at university, you know, okay, it's a while ago now, but it's not that long ago, you know, 2012, you know. That was like I could go out on that.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I could go out on a tenner at university. Pound a pint night. Yeah, pound of pints, quad vods, two pounds. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:And and so, you know, it's just and wages have not kept up with that. It would be all fine and dandy if wages were keeping up with inflation. But, you know, you've had certainly bigger experts on that topic than me on this on these podcasts, and and so it's just becoming more and more unobtainable. And at the same time, rents are going up, homeownership is just a pipe dream for the vast majority of people, unless they're getting help from the bank of Mama Dad. And so that all has a negative uh effect on dating. Um, you also have to look at social media's role in this. Now, 20 years ago, social media was Facebook, it was statuses, it was taking your digital camera to the nightclub and then uploading the photos, like you know, Southampton Thursday.
SPEAKER_03:Roll of like 300 photos, yeah, and they're all like the same picture. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what I mean? It's just your mates with their tongue and the tongue's always like bright blue from all but like cheap alcohols.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um WKD. Yeah, that was the one VK five VKs for a tenor or whatever it was. That's your£10 there. But the the great thing about social media was like you just lived within your world, right? Like I knew you went to Southampton and I went to Uni in Bristol. Like I just knew what was going on there, and I knew like celebrities on TV or magazines, but it wasn't like I can now engulf myself in content creation, I can engulf myself in like you know, celebrities' life and behind the scenes. And so I think the reality of dating is a lot of people now perceive settling or or you know, dating someone that's normal or whatever it is, as like, oh you know, I should be dating this, or you know, I you know, there's all these kind of get rich quick schemes a lot of the time where people like, you know, I become a forex trader and I live in Dubai and six four in finance, yeah, exactly. All that type of stuff. And so a lot of people feel like if they not, I mean, I hate to use this word, but if they're settling for just the the local person or whatever it is, then it's you know, it they're not gonna have this amazing life and it's seen through social media. And you and I know this as we work in social media, and you talk about this a lot, which is great. Social media is complete, you know, not complete, but like a lot of it is just fakeness. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and a lot of these people are just saying this clickbait and things like that. So dating's massively changed between you know the cost of going on it, but also the cons the perception of what a successful relationship or date is.
SPEAKER_03:So, didn't do you think that dating's become an economic luxury as such?
SPEAKER_01:Goodness me, that's a great question. No, because you can date for free. I mean, you can you can cook dinner at home. Okay, you've got to buy some ingredients, but okay, fine. You could I just had a meeting today with the the Royal Parks. It's really amazing, like they're in the beautiful parks. You can go walk around a park, you can take a picnic there, you can do that stuff. But like I was saying, if you then go back to the thing before, you know, there's so many women online. I was I was talking about this to the actual in the meeting today, which was I want to knock down the conception that going on a walk is a low effort date. A lot of women online, especially I see on TikToks, like if a man asks you to go for a walk and get you a coffee or whatever, then don't agree to the date because low effort and he doesn't care. Like that, that is just a common, um, a very, very common um thought.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I see. So they're like sexy fish, 350 quid uh for the starters. Yeah, exactly. And if he's not like splashing out and offering to pay, then there's a problem.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think they just perceive it as minimal effort. Well, actually, a lot of people would perceive that as that's a fantastic way to get to know someone, you know what I mean? You can always go to a bar afterwards. That's that that I don't want to give away all the content I'm gonna do with them. But the the point is, you know, like you can suggest things that are free, but then going back in the loop to what I said. A lot of people then perceive that as low effort or doesn't have any money, won't be able to give me the life I want in the future. So, yes, you can do things on the cheap or do things completely for free, but then it comes back to the oh, is that gonna sell me to them? So people, you know, you were talking, you talk a lot about rich guy, broke guy, and this kind of fakery. A lot of people will put ridiculously expensive dates on on credit cards or finance or whatever it is, you know, you can clar stuff or whatever, yeah, just to impress someone. And it gives this false sense of security, but that's the real problem is that they feel that that's the only way to be able to secure a person that they they value. I've definitely done that. Oh, yeah, I know. So I definitely yeah, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:I think like I've all I've definitely thought, well, I'd better do the thing. And I used to do it back in the sort of debt days as well, and like I would literally take out a new credit card just to take somebody out.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, I've not done that, I've not gone that bad. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:No, I I remember it well actually, and um it it's like I was trying to not be me and just to win the prize as such, or of of actually getting a girlfriend, which is actually what I really wanted at the time. And you know, you but it would have been probably nicer just meeting up and having a you know a coffee or a or even just yeah, a small glass of wine in a nice wine shop or something like that. 100%. Um and it's just we it do you think that plays into that like status game that we have in our whole life then? 100%. Yeah, everything, and that it's bleedsing over into dating.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean it bleeds over into everything, right? Instagram, who you've got on your up on your arm, where you take them, you know, where they then wanted want to be taken. Do you know what I mean? And then how big the wedding becomes. Yeah, how big the wedding becomes. God, don't even talk to me about that considering we're planning one at the minute. You know, it just there's another one. Yeah, it'll be I mean it'll be good for all you lot, but nothing's it's a pain. It's a pain. And um, but you know, we're we're like we're we're people that wanted to do it, like the the cost of it is obscene, right? It's just it is just obscene. Like as soon as you say wedding, it's like you know, they're quoting us to to make paella on the day two, right? Paella is chicken and rice, right? And they're like, oh yeah, it's 28 quid a portion. I'm like, 28 quid a 30 euros a portion of paella. I'm like, mate, I could make paella for a hundred people for 30 quid, and that's not hyperbole. So yeah, you tell them it's a wedding, and then that's that's the price.
SPEAKER_03:We did a LinkedIn post about it. Oh, they're it's like wedding tax.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah, so I told them just do not tell any caterers on day two because it's you know, no one's gonna be in a suit or anything. Just tell them it's a I don't know, late 30th or something, I don't know, early 40th, probably now. Um, but back to your point, yes, exactly. It's a it everything everything is becoming statusing, and even to even to the type of dating app you use, right? There's levels to to dating apps to do with socioeconomic grouping. And so, you know, if you've got a certain degree, if you've got a certain amount of money, if you're in a certain industry, that really dictates where you date from a digital perspective, much like you would mix in members' clubs or you would mix with you know your community in the offline world, that totally exists in the online world as well. We can very, very interestingly could talk about that too when we later on in this podcast.
SPEAKER_03:Well, no, no, I'd I'd love to because you mentioned it there, and I remember you getting in that app and it was invite only and you'd apply um what was it? Raya. Yeah, Raya, yeah, exactly. And it that was like you'd be in the mix with some celebs and some models, and it was like super cool. They said no to me because I'm ugly as fuck.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's not that one, that's not true, and also I've I well, I I met Sarah on Raya. Did you? Yes, I met Sarah on Raya.
SPEAKER_04:Ah.
SPEAKER_01:So for you, they let you in. Well, I was working in talent management then, so of course they let me. God, you should have seen my references, mate. You definitely let me in. So, for those of you that obviously don't know, I'd spent four years working in kind of talent management specifically within the modeling sector. So um, I remember one night crazy, what probably wonder why we're friends.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he actually hates me. Just like hanging out with models.
SPEAKER_01:One of the craziest nights I ever had in my whole life. Um, I think it was about 27 or 28, and we were working very closely with Estee Lauder, and they ran this kind of philanthropy night where they were they had like a brand that was putting money like profits into pollution, uh, ocean pollution stuff. And so they would say, Is anyone in your you know books really interested in this kind of conservation work? And weirdly, like loads of Victoria's Secret models were like, Yeah, we're really interested in it, la la la. So they were like, they asked me to take like three or four Victoria's Secret models and another like seven models to this SA Lauder thing because the SA Lauder client was my client, and so it was just me at 27 turning up with like these people like you know, 20 million followers or whatever. Um, and really interestingly, a guy that I I worked with who's in talent, you just focus your laugh at this, and I think your listeners find it interesting. So they would he started ringing restaurants being like, I'm with all these people, you can call that you can call the paps on us, basically. So they like preempt the paparazzi where Slow was gonna go if you'll give us uh give us free dinner, basically. So, you know, we want a whole table of whatever really we went to Monkey House in Dover Street, yeah, and they said, We'll tell the paparazzi that there's all these Victoria Secret mods, and they're like, Done. Do you know what I mean? Done, have whatever you want. Um, but the point is, when I was sitting down at the table with them, I was like, hey guys, has anyone got Ryah? Like, can anyone sign me in? And they were like, Yeah, of course. I was like, Yes. Next day, straight in. I'm like, Yes. Oh, wow. Um, first person I ever saw when I opened it was Cara the Levine as well. Uh I know, first person. But yeah, me and Sarah met on Raya. And interestingly, and this is so funny, when we met, so for those of you that don't know what Ryah is, it was originally set up for the kind of famous people and people that work with famous people. So agents, uh, production people, stylists, so they didn't have to mix with kind of because you can't be really famous and be on Bumble because people just report you. Or plenty of fish or whatever. Yeah, because people just report you for fit thinking you're fake. So I can't remember who it was. Like some celebrity was like, I can't, I got banned from Tinder and Bumble because they thought I was using fake account. So they set up this Rye one. The waiting list for Rye is two and a half million, by the way, globally now. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, two and a half million. Wow. And the great thing about Riot is everyone pays no matter how famous you are, which I think is brilliant. So Sarah and I met on Riot, and the most funny thing was when we both met, we were unemployed. So she signed up to probably meet some footballer and I signed up to meet some Zoom model turned up, and both of us were on furlough, and like, oh yeah, cheers, Rishi Sunak. Help out to eat out. So um, so yeah, but Ryan. Yeah, yeah. I wish that date was 10 pound meal, but anyway. Um, but yeah, Rias obviously like a very elitist one. You've got the league, which is about university background. Oh wow. Yeah, so that was originally started for Ivy League only students, and then it kind of built out, kind of similar to Facebook in some way. Yeah, a little bit like that. Yeah, and then you come all the way down to your generics, and then you've got kind of lower social economic groups like uh plenty of fish, it's more kind of your working class version of that.
SPEAKER_03:That's where I was knocking about.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that your is that your market? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Two months, and then I was like, I'm never doing this again. Yeah, thank God my uh my guff and to this day came along because uh it was a tough two months. Yeah, um, but let's bring it back to home because something you mentioned there was there's two and a half million wait list, yeah, which is a huge number, and uh even though that's you know it's still a huge number, even though it's globally. But since 1980, there's been an 82% increase in people identifying as single. Yeah. What are the financial realities for someone that's single versus a couple today?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, great question. So you're gonna be about 10 grand worse off per person. 10,000? Yeah, per year. Per year? Per annum. More than 10,000, actually, but yeah, roughly around between 10 and 11,000.
SPEAKER_03:So there's a singles tax of 10 grand.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that is the vast majority. And this, by the way, is if you're living by yourself, right? So the vast majority of that is just you paying every single bill in your household.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Can you just imagine living on your own with no one to split rent or mortgage or bills or tax or anything with? Every single thing that comes in is is your responsibility, you know. Even like the weekly shop, you know, I do one week, Sarah does the next week, whatever it is, but every week to you, okay, fine. The the output is half, but still the mortgage is the mortgage. And then there's the cost of dating. So actually, I'm gonna ask you this. Give me, what do you think the average person spends on dates if they're single in a year? It's not huge, it's not huge, huge, but it's it's it's a fair whack.
SPEAKER_02:Uh 500 pounds. 1300. So over 100 a month.
SPEAKER_01:1030. Yeah, well what's the okay, let's go. Next question. What's the average cost of a date in London? What as in what do the hold on, what how do I frame this? Yeah, what is the average cost of a date in London, which is the most expensive, and what's the average cost of a date in Leeds, which is the cheapest? Leeds and Plymouth.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, uh I'm gonna save£55 in London. Yeah. And then I'm gonna save£35 in Leeds. Okay, you're way off.
SPEAKER_01:£260 in London.£260? Yeah,£260, and£133 in Plymouth and Leeds. And£130 in Leeds,£133 in Plymouth. I get it, because like in my head, I'm like, that's that's what I would. When have you ever spent£50 quid on a date, Sammy? Come on. No, I know. Even back at I'm even when you were dating, so even like seven years ago,£50. You're not getting or that. You're not getting anything, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think the craziest that as well is like 13% of people think between three and four hundred pounds is the average you should spend on a first date. Yeah. It's not loads, but it's still all fair whack again.
SPEAKER_03:Three and my um look, the hairs have gone up on my arm. Uh three to four hundred pounds on a first date. Yeah. As an average. Yeah. That's what they think they should.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 13, that's only 13% of people. So you could always flip that and say eight to seven percent. I think you and I also think that's a load of nonsense. But you can see you know, the average price of a date in London is 260 quid. So, you know, who's got 260 quid?
SPEAKER_03:So if you work those numbers out then, because it's 1300 a year, uh 260 pounds, so you're going on roughly five to six dates a yeah, uh technically.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's about right, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03:Unless you are having a few free ones in there. But yeah, like that's that's what let's say it's a first date. These are first dates, right? Yeah, yeah. And you're struggling to find a partner, well your odds are considerably lowered. Yeah. That's scary.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's very scary. And it goes back to what you just said. You've got since yeah, what was the start since 1980, 82% increase in people identifying single? I think what's even scarier than that is the last five years have nearly been the same amount of increase as the last uh 20 before. Whoa. Yeah. And what and why? I think one is cost, right? I think the prioritization, especially within the female space of Korea, is another one. I saw this crazy stuff the other day, and I'm reeling off a lot of numbers here, but it's like by 2030, yeah, 2030, 45% of females between the ages of 22 and 35 will be single and childless.
SPEAKER_03:45%.
SPEAKER_01:45%.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:So half, basically, let's just say half, something like that.
SPEAKER_03:And there's a multitude of factors that we we both know are huge here, and how that has a massive effect on the economy as well. It's just drastic.
SPEAKER_01:On this, on the human race, right? Um and that's and I think that's an interesting thing. We talk about because I work in online dating, or I work in dating, and I go to a lot of startup conferences. You know, I'm I'm very lucky, very passionate about what I do, so I can articulate it well. But when people hear that you work in the dating space, they do not give you anywhere near the respect that some agentic AI robot SaaS company that like can you know tell you what your favorite sandwich is or whatever. Do you know what I mean? And and I I think to myself, like, yo, if we don't get more people dating in relationships and hopefully getting married and having children, we all go extinct. Every single Western country near enough, and don't even get me started on Asia, you know, like Japan. I mean, we're just not having children. And if you don't have children, if you don't have any people that pay tax into pension pots, you have an aging population, we're all, you know, it's easily going to be getting up to 95, 100 as an average life expectancy soon.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. So the um required rate for a sustainable birth rate for a country is 2.1. The Britain is currently 1.3, 1.4. For um context, Somalia has been reduced from the high threes down to 2.4, and that was the highest country in the world. So this isn't a UK problem, this is a global problem. And a large part of that is education. Um, females are being more educated, they are pursuing careers, they are becoming way more independent, and that's a fantastic thing. There is no one saying that that's not a good thing at all. Um, but it is causing uh birth rate issues which are going to manifest later in 20, 30 years' time.
SPEAKER_01:I just sometimes think, you know, we've got friends with multiple children now, and I just think to myself, like, how do you literally have any money? You know, I know some, you know, Sean, who you met at my stack to, you know, lives up north. Um what a guy, man. Absolutely love Gemma. By the way, if you are listening to this, congratulations. He had another kid this week. Um, so it's his third boy, right? And I think to myself, you've got three boys. Okay, yes, his his wife, Gemma, works, but how how do you pay for three children and you and Gemma and go on holidays and have enough clothes for them and five meals, you know, you know, oh yeah, so in smaller portions, but you know, and he just says it you just make it work. So my mentality is like, oh god, if I've got any money at the end of the month, it's going on me or it's going in the savings spot, whatever it is. But I always think to myself, goodness me, like they must be like chief accountants. But he just says, you just make it work, and so they manage to, but I can see why some people, and you know what? I think a lot of people feel like they've grafted so hard to get to a position, especially women, where they're like, you know what, I've worked my ass off to get to this level.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'm not gonna go and have a baby. Exactly. I mean, I've just got the manager's job. Yeah. Spent 10 years doing this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I've I've put the, you know, and it's harder for them to get there or whatever it is. And they're like, oh, I'm not gonna sacrifice myself for the greater good. That's someone else's job.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I get it.
SPEAKER_01:You know, it can't be everyone else's job if we all have that mentality.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, a child now is said to cost between 145 and 165,000 pounds, depending on where you live in the country. Oh, yeah. So that's zero to eighteen. And so if you're having three of them, that's half a million quid nearly.
SPEAKER_01:And good luck getting rid of them at 18. I think, you know, that's you know.
SPEAKER_03:That's if they don't, that's if they leave on their 18th birthday. And even then, you're still supplementing them three weeks.
SPEAKER_01:I'm 35 and I still mum's still like, oh, do you want to come on this holiday? I'm like, yeah, I'll still pay for it. Going to divide in a few weeks. I was like, Yeah, come on, I'll come on the flight. Yeah, yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, like, you know, and then I hope that I can put myself in a position to potentially provide that for my kids one day. And I think like they get enjoyment out of it, exactly. Yeah, they want you there. Yeah, and that's what's cool about it. And but it doesn't stop the fact that when you are like thinking or you're because uh let's say for example, you know, uh you're thinking about having a child or you get in that relationship at 25, 26, which is when you know you're you're at your prime, you know, birthing years, as for a female, uh especially, and you're like 165 grand that thing's gonna cost me. Well, I don't know, like we can barely pay our rent. We are just about striving now. We can pop out to the pub once a week at the moment, like that's our life. And we're putting a child into that, it doesn't seem fair, it doesn't feel fair. Um, and I think that that's a scary thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, the thing is what you we've got to look at changes at a much bigger level than me and you sitting over a you know over this this table and chatting. You know, we've got to put some incentives in there and we've got to make it work for people, you know. The government essentially hammers you. You know, look at look at look at the that big tax, uh, the tax cliff between 100, is it 100 and 125k?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Where you lose all your child support and you're essentially paying a 63% higher tax rate.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So we're disincentivizing people, one into earning more money, and two, earning more money and having children because they lose all the benefit, right? So we we've got to get to a point where I mean, I don't know why being a startup, right? We're part of a thing called Innovate, which gives government grants to problems the government wants solved, right? So tarmacking solutions for the potholes or whatever it is. And every month I I read all the things the civil service are investing in businesses that do X, Y, and Z. And I'm like waiting for the day. They've they wake up and realize that there's no children being born in this country. And I'm not saying that we're you know gonna solve solve that straight away, but if you wanna, you know, if you want that, you need to get people to meet. People aren't in relationships like they used to be, people aren't going out. Hospitality is getting hammered every second. People can't afford to go to the pub where they would have met before. And so, goodness me, guys, like are we gonna invest in these things? Because if you don't have any children, none of this matters. None of it. And so I always tell our account manager there, she's lovely, Alex. I'm like, when are we gonna get the uh we need more children budget? Because we need them. So let's get it going. So if anyone from the civil service is listening to this, for the love of God, we need some more kids in this country and we can be the first step at that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. I read um a stat the other day that the rural schools are closing at faster rates than ever just because they can't fill the classrooms up. And obviously, a lot of people are moving away to the cities because all of the infrastructure has moved, the hospital is closed down in that area, the post office, the pub's gone, so they've gone to the bigger town where there is people and where there was a fantastic, you know, top offstead primary school, there's now no longer a school. For someone holding off on dating until they're financially ready, then, because it sounds like we're gonna have to save up a little bit if it's 260 quid, right? Does the data support that strategy or is it a trap when it comes to trying to find the other one that you need to spend your life with? With.
SPEAKER_01:I absolutely disagree with that. So I'll put that straight out there. I feel like w if you want to like another thing, and I know this isn't a dating podcast, but I always say this on the more kind of dating like podcasts that I go on. A date is just like a first date is just a meeting to decide if you want a second date. That's it. Go into every first date thinking we're just hanging out and I'm gonna decide at the end if I want to go out with this person again. People put way too much pressure on first dates. I'm gonna go to Nobu, I'm gonna get the like tuna ta ta and the bottle of wine, and I'm gonna spend 250 quid. And it's like, whoa, chill. That's not what this is about. Go and do something casual or like fun or whatever it is. Do the walk with a with a glass of wine afterwards. Do like something active, people like activity dates. If that's your bag, then go for it. But I couldn't do that. Yeah, I mean, for me, I don't mind doing it. So weirdly, Sarah took me on a date when we were really first date and we went on the world's biggest slide. Okay, absolutely. You know, in um the Stratford one. Yeah, yeah. It's good, but like it's over in 30 seconds, right? Like, what do I do now? Chelsea lose to West Brom. I remember it clearly. Tiago Silva's first game. She's all a very different side to me. So happy and then fuming. Um, but yeah, back to your question. Like, don't give, don't, don't not date because you don't feel you have the financial means to impress someone or to do this mega date that you want. Like, dating is so much, it's fun, it's part of your life. You know, the you're gonna be in a point, you know, maybe it's not guaranteed for everyone, but you are gonna be in a point where you're gonna probably settle down with someone, where you know, the thought of like going out on loads of dates in the in the week or whatever is actually filling you with dread rather than excitement. But when you're younger, go out and enjoy yourself. Like go out, get to know someone, like treat a first date, like I said, as just a meeting. I'm just gonna go and meet this person, and I'm gonna decide at the end if I if I enjoyed my time enough to want to meet that person again. Don't go in with any pressures into it. So I think, yeah, you you can have five quid in your back burner, you can still go for a walk and I don't know, take a couple of tinnies with you if you want to want to drink at the end. So go for it.
SPEAKER_03:Let's talk about this. So, do you feel like you need to invest time? Like you would invest your money, like you kind of get what you pay for, you get back what the time that you put in if you're putting it into dating. 100%.
SPEAKER_01:Here's a wild stat. And it I might, it might, you might go, oh well, obviously, he works for a dating company, but my god, like don't try and get a discount on your dating product, right? 95% of people, I think, don't pay for Tinder, and their whole, I mean, they make a billion pounds a year, billion dollars a year, or five percent of users, right? It's crazy. Imagine if they just sorry, say that again. Five percent it's about five percent, yeah, pay for Tinder. Really? About five percent. So 95% are on free booths, booths, um, you know, premium models, premium, yeah, things like that. Everyone on Raya pays, even if you're the world's most famous celebrity, everyone pays. And I really liked that with Raya because it was like, you could be the richest guy in the world, I'm still taking 10 quid a month off you. Yeah, and it's good because it's a level play, it's like everyone's paying for it. And they had little things in there you could buy, like super message or whatever. Probably flung a few of those out to some like you know, big time DJs or whatever. Alright, what you want to say.
SPEAKER_00:What's going on, girl?
SPEAKER_01:Ignored, still took my 250 off me, but anyway. Um, but one of the things I always tell people is look, like, like any investment, you're outlaying money, but you're you're hoping to get returns on it. Now, the dating, we can't promise, it's like you say, even you know, okay, you have things that you know, SP 500, things like that that you think naturally these things go up, but nuclear war could happen tomorrow and that could just all go to pot, right? So it's the same thing I say with with your dating app. Like if you're single, invest in premium for your dating company. I'm not saying download ours, I'm I'm just saying pick one, right? And this is how I would this and I think this is what I would do. If I were single again, this would be my strategy. What's the most important thing to me? Is it values? Is it lifestyle? Is it you know religion? You know, you know, if I'm if I'm Jewish and I have to date another, like another Jewish person, then just put your money into Jewish dating website, J Swipe, right? Like get the premium account. I have to be in that area. If I'm like, you know what, I'm in a more rural area, you're gonna have to go with one or more of the broad ones. Like if you're in the middle of, you know, can I swear on the fuck off bump up nowhere in like you know, the Yorkshire Dales or somewhere, you're gonna have to use Tinder, right? To get any sort of reach, right? But I think what is really important to me, the most important thing, is it values, is it a religion, is it a lifestyle, is it's economics? You know what I mean? Is it like, okay, I'm a high flyer in the city, I want someone at my level, you know, I'm gonna get the league. But just invest in one of those ones, then have the other ones and use them on free accounts if you want, but just have the most important one and get the subscription because it's the most, you know, you've talked about this before and you've clipped it. Most important decision you're ever gonna make this. Don't get a disco you want a discount, you know. I I tell you a funny story. Uh I was in, I was in South Africa with my mum. My mum used to work for BA. So when I was on some holidays, I'd be like, Mom, got anywhere decent like to go to, anywhere crap. I'd be like, nah, you can go there on your own. But South Africa. I was like, Yeah, South Africa's sick. Anyway, BA staff had like a loyalty program where they get money off certain things, and she was trying to haggle with this guy for a discount on the shark cage. And I'm like, Mum, there's a certain things in life you don't haggle for the discount on. She's like, Do you know take the BA card? We're not gonna do it. They're like, Yeah, but that only runs between these months, blah, blah. I'm like, Mum, I beg of you, don't get a discount on a shark cage.
SPEAKER_03:He's leaving it the latch. Yeah, mate, I was like, mate.
SPEAKER_01:Shark cage, bungee drum, jumping out of a plane, just pay me. Just pay me one. But that's the same thing I'm telling you right now is don't try and get a discount on your on your future partner. You know, you're happy to pay for the Netflix, you're happy to pay for the gym, just pay 20 quid a month for the dating and cut something else.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you know, and that's why the values thing is so important, yeah, because it comes into money as well, and you should be potentially asking some difficult questions perhaps around money earlier.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so get this. Here's a great stat for you. 72% of Gen Z think it's important to talk about money with a partner. Serious money questions, right? 72, I think, or maybe 78. It was 72 or 78. I get this. How many uh oh no, I'll just tell you. So 72% um think it's important to talk about money. Only 41% of couples have had a conversation about money before engagement. Whoa. Half. Just say half, near enough half. 41% of couples have never sorry, have never have never had a conversation with their partner about anything, money, finances, anything before engagement.
SPEAKER_03:And I wonder what the rough like time frame that is. It's got to be a couple of years, at least average. At least, yeah. I mean I was three, but so a couple of years, and you've never spoken about over half.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's not no no no no no, it's it's yeah, well 41% have never. Oh, okay. So 60% have, but 41% have never. So basically, basically half near enough. I've never had a conversation about money. Although, although 72% think you should. So they think you should, but they just don't have the they don't want to be the ones to bring it up, or they don't actually practice what they preach. And that's scary, right? Because you could be on completely different wavelengths, and then you're and then you're uh you've already gone a whack however much money on the ring.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you spend loads on the ring, you've got the wedding coming up now, potentially a family. It's probably time, you know. And and I think it's scary though, because I would probably be personally I think I'd probably be apprehensive about it maybe the first five dates. I'm don't sure I would bring it up. I think I'd get quite a good understanding in my head. I'd probably have some own questions which are prompt questions, etc., that I know I'm gonna ask to see how they they get on with those types of things. It's been much more difficult for me these days being a financial bloody coach, but um the they'd obviously be asking me to. Imagine going on a date. Imagine going on a date with you now. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:Tommy, I don't care about ISIS. Talk to me about what you do at the weekend. I look at ISO HMRC will owe you money, but for God's sake.
SPEAKER_03:Damn it. Yeah, I'm screwed. Uh I'm just gonna have to stay with Charlotte forever now. Um, poor thing. But I think after a while, you after five, it's like, okay, five, yeah, you're probably going somewhere for at least for a little while longer, I would say, you know, at that at that point. You're probably not gonna get to five if you weren't feeling good. And then it's like, okay, yeah, what are you saying about money? Well, how would you approach that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I you know, I'm glad you asked that because I was just about to say, you don't have to make it so like forthright, let's do data six about money. Yeah, no. You bring your budget tracker, I'll bring mine. You know, you can just say a little bit of things like, you know, what's your five-year plan? That's a very normal, like, if you've got a five-year plan, where do you see yourself in five years?
SPEAKER_03:I'd walk out if someone said that to me. What where do you see yourself in five years? I'd I might like that, but you know, it's the same when someone says it in an interview. I'm like, bruh. Well, you don't know, dude. But you need to, but like, you know. I suppose it's like, what's your key ambitions?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, what do you want to, yeah. Like, I think it's a way you you way you frame it or whatever, you know, like what do you think is gonna happen, you know, where do you see yourself, like where are you going, like what's kind of like a goal for you or whatever it is? Because again, you know, if if a person's really on, you know, if a person's really on this and you're really on this, then you might as well save some time. If like, for instance, children, like if some people are like, you know, I I especially if you're dating within our age group, like, you know, we're in our mid, you know, actually you're over mid-30s now, do you know what I mean? And I will be so very soon, but you know, you five years, you're 41. Do you know what I mean? So for us, we can't have you have to have those conversations fairly quickly. So if you're you know, I've got friends that are like categorically uh don't want children, and that's fine. Okay, it's fine, you know, that it's like I said, it's no one's duty, although you know it's a problem, but it's it's it's no one's duty to have them. Um I'm glad you said that. Yeah, of course it is. It's no one, it's absolutely no one's duty. It's not burden of you, the the the failures of the state, you know. This is a this is a inherently a government problem for for you. You must go and make baby now, yeah, exactly. No, well if you want made horrific policies for years and years and years which have which have exacerbated your own demise.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I'm glad you said that because I was gonna ask you about this. What societal incentives and policies are affecting dating decisions? So things like the tax breaks, the pensions, the immigration thy the things which come up as well. How do we approach that when we go into dating?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think successive governments and just how like hyper capitalism, look, you know, you know, you know me and my what I what I think about politics and things like that, but you know, I certainly aren't on I'm I'm I'm fairly centrist, but you know, I'm much more in in the in the the the free market camp, right? And and you know, cap definitely a capitalist. But you know, we've made it so ridiculous for anyone to have any of the things that would just stand it to our parents that everyone's had you had to go to work. Females had to go to work because how else would they survive? You know, even one male going to work now is hardly enough money to provide for a family, for a household. And so females have gone into the workplace, and like I said, you know, they're losing they're they're you're unincentivized to earn more money. If you're on 90,000 get and you've got a kid, like getting a hundred 10 grand pay rise is not what you want because you're getting into a 63% tax bracket until you hit, I think it's 120 or 125, and you lose your child benefit. So the government are making regressive taxation policy based on you know children, but also how much money you we're saying, no, actually don't don't earn more money because you'll actually have less. No, but do, but do. Yeah. And so we can take more of it, but you won't get so why would anyone do that? It's either I'm getting a you know pay rise to 125 or I'm not taking it right. Um, and so I just think, you know, we the societ society has just become it's been so hyper capitalist, and we're all so struggling to keep up with with everything, that what, you know, but you just said what you say, 120 grand a kid? 165. 165. What's it just gone up, I said?
SPEAKER_03:No, no, no, it's definitely like it's between hundreds, depending on who and does the study, it's like 145 to 165.
SPEAKER_01:But people just say, you know, like people just say, I can't afford to have a child. And I think that also, you know, if we're we're talking politics here, you know, we've got the two-child cat benefit, you know, something very weirdly that reform are against, you know, they want to get rid of that. They want to have more benefits, which is a very, very left-wing policy for such a right-wing party, right? I think it's only like the SNP and the Greens that agree with that. Weird. But anyway, um, you know, there they're I understand why people have resentment towards people that are on benefits that have loads of children, get housing, you know, you know, and it's not the kids' fault. But like you've got very middle class couples that have one kid or don't have kids at all because they can't afford it. And then you've got people having eight, nine kids. And I think, you know, again, a lot of immigration coming into the country, as you mentioned there, having a lot of children, do you know what I mean? You know, especially within, you know, certain communities, you know, having a lot of children, council housing, putting pressure on the, you know, a lot of people there not working, so that it's just pressure, pressure, pressure. And so I understand why people get angry. Like I understand that, you know, I'm not gonna name where, but I, you know, I've spent a lot of time in a place that was just needed such a bad lick of pain. But then it's like you're looking at how many people pay tax in these areas, and it's like way less than a third. So again, you know, there's children's become weaponized in some way, you know? Absolutely. And so, and I get it, by the way. If you're working, if you're you know, you're coming in on the train at five. What time do you get the train in this morning?
SPEAKER_03:6.25.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Imagine you're working in the city, coming in from Ramsgate, you're up at five o'clock every day. You did it once, right? But not once, but you know what I mean. Imagine you're doing that every day.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Every single day, working, grafting, dialing for dollars, smashing it out in wherever.
SPEAKER_03:Or someone gives you a fat check for doing nothing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And you're going, you know what, I can't have a kid. And if I get a pay rise, I'll lose, I'll actually lose money. What? What kind of how how it's like?
SPEAKER_03:I need the pay rise because my train's gone up and catch 22 around we go here. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I can't afford to live here, so I've got to move out. But then if I move out, I've got to get the training, which means I I have less sleep, and the train's costing me eight grand or whatever it is a year. So actually I might as well stay here, but then I can't have a garden.
SPEAKER_03:Or I can't have a child, yeah. So it's like it's what we're gonna do. Like I said, we can't solve it over this table, but we can try. Well, we can give it a go, but you are giving it a go, and so you are you've built this piece of tech, and I think it's important to discuss the reasons why you built it because you prey are the dating apps as they currently exist prey on dopamine, yeah, and they prey on the kind of same vibe of short form content, and you have something incredible about short form content, which blew my mind when you told me what is that?
SPEAKER_01:It's more harmful to your brain than alcohol.
SPEAKER_03:So short form content is more harmful to your brain than alcohol. Why?
SPEAKER_01:Because it affects the dopamine receptor, the prefrontal cortex, is that right? It's the it's a reward makes dopamine for you. Yeah. And short form content, with just by its nature of not knowing what's coming next, the fact that everything's different when you're flicking through it, it just overwhelms that part of your brain more than drinking does. And so you're flooding your brain. So I actually said this the other day, which is we've lost the ability to be bored, and being bored is very important. Because you can just draw from your phone. You yeah, because you can draw for your phone. How many I don't I I literally, if I'm going to a toilet and haven't got my phone, I'll turn around and go get my phone. I'm the same. Yeah. So I just flick through TikTok and I'm just sit there and I'm like, you know, this morning I was watching an American in a hotel room eat UK McDonald's and rate it. And then I said to myself, I actually said to myself, what the fuck am I doing? Yeah. Like, I what the fuck am I doing? Yeah. Like they're like, oh, these mozzarella sticks are better in America. I don't, you know, it's pointless.
SPEAKER_03:It's not changing your life, probably.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's making my life worse. Do you know what I mean? Because I'm like, yeah, but that's because yours are full of crap and I'm getting pissed off. But, you know, we've lost the ability to be bored. And let me say this: like, being bored is very important. One, it allows our brain to rest, but it also allows our brain to think. If you're just flooding yourself with mozzarella dip eating Americans or whatever, you're never allowing your brain to start thinking about things. And, you know, I came up with the idea for matter looking out the window in the gym. I was like, God, I felt like I wanted to talk about my ADHD on a dating app, but then I dating apps are so competitive and so swipy. I was like, God, if I write this down, like no one's gonna like me. They're gonna think I'm hyper or I can't shut up, or like, you know, they're just not gonna want to date because of so many people. So I'll just pretend I don't have anything. I thought of that looking out the window, doing some exercise, right? So, you know, but that was before short film content existed. So, like, it's very, very important to allow your brain to just be like, think and to be bored and all that type of stuff. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And what have you addressed with the app?
SPEAKER_01:So the way the app works is we we work with psychiatrists and psychologists. So here's a wild stat for you. I love I love this one, by the way. Yeah, drum roll. So I think I don't know if I've told you this, but um the most amount of choice the human brain can handle before it's overwhelmed is nine options. Okay. Nine. Yeah. Nine options. Nine. Nine. Yeah. We've known that since 1956 or seven. A guy called Miller in America basically presented options to people and then did all the studies on, you know, when they started to get more frustrated. So having loads of options is actually a bad thing. And that's why if you go to like a Michael-style restaurant, they don't have three pages of food. They have like four mains, don't they? Fish, veg, meat, and that's it. You go to like a crap place and it's like TJ Fridays, you know, you're thinking microfate, micro, frozen, none of this is fresh, right? So actually, less is more, and we're overwhelming our brain with dopamine. So, you know, there's no point in going on Tinder and sitting there for 45 minutes, swiping through a hundred profiles. Easily hundred. You're making a decision based on anyone that's used Tinder bummer. I remember the videos of people just being like and I do like thousands. Yeah. I even saw like a guy that had um like a machine that just did it for him, and then he just went through and he liked. He just liked everyone, and then he just had it there, and he's like, Yeah, if I get one, I'll just match them or delete them or whatever if they're not for me. So we we give you nine if you're on premium, and we give you six if you're standard.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And then we rank them in ascending order based on your compatibility with them. And so every day you're presented with six profiles at midnight. We have the Cinderella moment of 1159 where we're like Cinderella moment, like last chance. And then we present you with six, we tell you why. So we think that you would be a good match for X because of this data that we have on you. You can't just like someone, you have to write to them because just you it's unnatural to go into a bar like Tinder and just poke someone like like and then just bugger off. Yeah. Yeah, what do you say? What's that? Like, why have you come over here and like dunk super swipe? Just like waving in their face. Yeah, I super like you. So we um we make you write, and to write, you have to open the profile. Because let me give you an example again. So you wouldn't just press message, you have to have to open the profile and it's at the bottom. So everyone, so I know if I'm gonna message you, I know everything about you. And because imagine this imagine you've got a dog, right? Imagine I'm female, I like the look of your profile, Archie's not on your profile picture. I've I'm like severely allergic to dogs. I come out in hives, right? And I've liked you, you've liked me back, buzzing, yeah. Like that's the guy I fancied. I want to, and then I open it, go through a little bit of your profile, four pictures in, you've got a dog. And I've just wasted all of this time. Like I'm never gonna be able to come near you or go in your house. You know, and and I mean dog is a very menial thing. Well, not menial if you've got a severe allergy, but you know what I mean? I understand. But you could be like really ultra right wing and you could have a real left-wing person that of that have match, and they're like ideologically not compatible. But because they're just doing stuff based on looks and nanoseconds, which is the dopamine thing, like how many of these can I get through? It's it's an infinite loop. You're never gonna run out of TikToks, you're never gonna run out of people on uh Tinder as long as you pay for it, and that's what they do, right? They they keep you on the hamster wheel, and I'll tell you, you're talking about gambling and dopamine uh flooding. Go and download Tinder. Well, actually, don't do their job.
SPEAKER_03:I'm never going back.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. If you download Tinder as a new account, you are flooded with the most attractive people that the whole product's got in your parameter for about the first hundred. It's like supermodel, supermodel, supermodel. People that are getting thousands and thousands of likes.
SPEAKER_03:I do remember that back in the day. You haven't used it for a couple of weeks, you go on and you're yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:All the baddies are there. Yeah, and they're never gonna see you, mate.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what I mean? They're never gonna see your profile. But they they want to make you think that everyone in this app is like that, right? And so they they're preying on your on your dopamine. And we we were very much like, we're not doing that, right? And even on our platform, if you want to reject, so let's say that you message me, I'm not, I'm not interested. I have to give a reason why I'm saying no to you. It's anonymous, so we don't, we don't, we don't go back and be like, Sammy said this, but you know, you can just put just not my type, which is the number one thing. But a lot of the time it's poor opening message, a profile wasn't complete enough for my liking, something there that I, you know, didn't align on value-wise. And so we can take that feedback back to the person and say, hey, you know, this is what it is. Like you've only got three pictures, like we give you an opportunity to do that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and they're not great or whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and they're low rares, or like, you know, like change of pictures, and then we see them getting more matches. And so one of the things we did actually was then the second thing after not my type, which is obviously understandable, was poor opening message. So we work with an AI company called Mindful. Mindful AI basically helps you craft opening messages in the tone you want to craft it in, right? Because some people like God, they just they want they know what they want to say, but they can't get it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've all had that. Your time colours. Yeah, and especially if you're nervous, even if it's digital, you can get nervous, like, oh, I'm shooting my shot here.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so we work with a company like that, and then we just saw message rates go like getting accepted way, way more since we put that in.
SPEAKER_02:So interesting.
SPEAKER_01:So the point we're getting at is like we're so human first. Everything we do is about helping you connect. And I find you know, things like hinge designed to be deleted, and yet we incentivize you to take out longer subscription packages with discounts. Like, how can those two things live in the same product? Everyone knows that they they don't want to delete. Whereas with us, like we know, like the data suggests that we've got basically like three months of of uh user, right? That's how long we set the cycle. Yeah, basically, we know that we've got three months to either find you a match, give you a good experience, or you're gonna churn, right? That's like we get that. So we want you to come in, and that's what I'm saying about investing. You know, invest 20 quid a month or whatever it is for three months, see how you get on. And we know as a business, we're gonna keep someone in for three months. We're you know, there's there's ongoing and there's outcome products, right? Like there's Netflix is ongoing, you know, you're always gonna pay 10 pounds a month, whatever it is for Netflix. But then there's things like weight loss. Do you know what I mean? You know there's gonna be an outcome to that, hopefully. You know, you want your client to succeed, you don't want them to still be, you know, the weight they came in.
SPEAKER_03:There's yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Why are you still on my thing? And so for us, you know, we understand there's a there's a need for there to be a closure. And so we're like, come in three months, hopefully we can convert people. And like I say, our investment, Sammy, is gonna make you money because we work with, like I said, 70 brands now giving you discounts you wouldn't get. You know, we can give you like 25 pound credit on premium. Everyone on premium gets 25 pound credit for Ruby, which is beauticians to your home. So, you know, you know, if you're getting your nails done, lashes, whatever it is, to come to your flat and do it. Nice cocktail bars, mini golf, axe throwing around the corner. So you're putting in premium and you're actually making money back. So we always like to say we're the world's first ethical dating company because actually, if you use a product two or three perks a month, you'll make that money back.
SPEAKER_03:I think you're doing great things. And um, for those that are listening to this, how could they get involved if they were interested in jumping on?
SPEAKER_01:So, some exciting news. This is breaking news. I kept this for you. It's exciting, it's exciting for us. Um, so we were only based in London and now we've expanded. So we've got launching, we're just waiting for Apple to sign off, but by the time this comes out, it'll be done. So now we're in anywhere within the M25, right? Okay. So it's not it's not like the whole world, but it's a little bit. So if you're in Watford, you can get Matter now. Uh nice, Epsom, Weybridge, Brentwood, and anywhere uh in the M25. So you can download the product. If you're not within that area, please download Matter anyway. It's spelled M-A-T-R and just put your name on the waiting list. Manchester and Birmingham are the two top cities. We just need a little bit more people there, and we can we can launch. Um, and if you like kind of what I've been talking about, um my Instagram, which is the best place for me, is dating with Jamie underscore.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's been good fun. It's been good fun. I want to do a little I don't normally do this, I want to do it with you. Go on and see what you say. So I've got a little quickfire, money equals love round. All right. So first date, who should pay and why?
SPEAKER_01:Whoever asks for the other person to go on the date.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, why why?
SPEAKER_01:Because they know if they're planning the date, they know how much it costs, and therefore they should be planning somewhere where they can pay for two people.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I like that. Minimal viable dating budget for someone in London per month.
SPEAKER_01:Including the app.
SPEAKER_03:Including the app.
SPEAKER_01:God a hundred quid.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, it's lower than I think.
SPEAKER_01:A hundred quid on a like one date a month and twenty quid for the premium account. Okay. Get a premium. I can't tell you that's gonna be your biggest lifesaver.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Biggest financial red flag in a potential new partner for you.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, credit, credit card debt, mad credit card debt. Trust me, I've dealt with it. We've got it, we've got it down, but it's been, yeah. I mean, goodness me, if you and Sarah dated back when you were in your waxing everything on credit card days, that would have just been a bank's dream and my absolute anxiety.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I I get it, I get it. Yeah, credit card debt. Um, what lifestyle inflation trap do most couples fall into these days?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, holidays they can't afford that they want to put on social media to impress people.
SPEAKER_03:Oh punchy Instagram lifestyle, love it. Okay, last one. Better financial decision. A 10k pay rise or marrying the right person. Marrying the right person, easy. Why?
SPEAKER_01:Because 10k you can spend on one of your overpriced holidays pretty quickly if your partner demands it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So, you know, you need to be a lot who you end up with is like your mental sanity, you don't want to get divorced, mate. Do you know how expensive that is? Yep. You've got to really want to get divorced. That's my that's my piece of advice for anyone think about getting divorced. Try therapy, try whatever, because you really got to want to get divorced. The price, the breakup of the home, your assets. I don't think my dad never come back from it mentally ever. Still resents it now, and it was nearly 30 years ago. So and that's I think my dad as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it broke him as a as a man. And and I think you gotta really want to get divorced. So pick someone that's not gonna put you through that. Or you might put them through it, but yeah, way more important than 10, 10, 10k, mate. 10k after 10k pay rise as well. So you're 5k after tax, then you literally, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:400 quid a month a few of the week. Definitely set that up, but it had to be done. Yeah, Jay, I've loved this. Um, so dating with Jamie and Matadoc Matter.social, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So M-A-T-T-R dot social across TikTok, IG, LinkedIn, all that jazz, and Matter uh Matter date, you want to type matter dating in uh App Store and Google Play. Love it, man. Thank you so much for coming on, man. Loved it. Cheers, bro.
